Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penalty?

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Rob01
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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The report from FIA is on autosport. Ferrari clearly gave a team order no matter what they say about Massa being mad about a slow car. Here is why his car was slower.

The report also revealed that a few laps before the radio communication where Rob Smedley informed Massa that Alonso was faster than him, both drivers had been ordered to turn their engines down – before the Spaniard was allowed to turn his up again.

"Alonso increased his engine speed without Mr Felipe Massa's being informed," revealed the FIA document. "Mr Fernando Alonso was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Felipe Massa in the moments preceding the contentious overtaking."

andrew
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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The drivers were both fined but I don't think the team were in 2002.

The problem with Germany 2010 is that Ferrari have been very clever and made sure that the messages were wooly enough so that they don't look like team orders OR Massa really is a team player and acted on factual information and made a decision of his own free will to let the faster car past.

It seems to be claim against claim and circumstantial evidence which are worth jack in a court of law.

To quote the great French Chief Inspector Jacques Clouseau "case clos-ed".

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hollus
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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I think we all agree that everyone in Ferrari understood what was being done. Team orders in a way, although of course no actual "order" was ever given. Let's agree Ferrari used team orders, then, and I would like to add a little reflection... the season has been long enough to spot some trends...

How many times (this year) has a Ferrari driver overtaken another one on track? Let's of course exclude the first corners, team "orders" and weird pit-lane shenanigans. On track.
How many times has a Red Bull driver passed the other one on track, minus first corners and crashes that the team declared unnaceptable?
How many times has a Mclaren driver passed the other one on track? I mean, without a flurry of ambiguous and misleading messages immediately followed by suspicious moves and radioed cease-fires. I mean a clean, random race, random time pass.

Now let's move further down the pecking order:

Renault, well, I don't think Kubica and Petrov even shared the same piece of tarmac.
How many times has a Mercedes driver passed the other on track?
How many times has a Williams driver passed the other on track?
Sauber?
Toro rosso?
Force India?

It would look like there is a force field preventing teammates from passing it other and that the force field is energized by being in the fight for the championship...
Rivals, not enemies.

Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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andrew wrote:To quote the great French Chief Inspector Jacques Clouseau "case clos-ed".
It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find Clouseau consulting for the FIA.

Yet again, I have to ask: if there wasn't enough evidence, then why uphold the fine?

What exactly is the WMSC's verdict? Not guiltier?

andrew
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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I think the fine would probably be for unsporting conduct or race manipulation by the drivers but the existance of and/or use of team orders has not been proven it would seem.

Rob01
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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the verdict is on autosport. Go read it and come back. FIA are aware Ferrari used team orders. But they refuse to penalize further because others have used them as well. But asking both drivers to turn down their engines and then give FA the ok to turn his back up but not Massa is wrong.

andrew
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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Rob01 wrote:But they refuse to penalize further because others have used them as well.
I said exactlly that at the time and got hugely binned by a certain prolific poster who claims to be a combination of white and blue. Where are they now!

Time for a victory jig me thinks!Image

Rob01
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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Good for you Andrew. I don't know the white blue thing but it sounds like he was NOT correct in his bravado.

Rob01
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Team orders are now Ok to use..

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Formula 1's title contenders now have an effective carte blanche to use team orders over the remainder of the season - if they are willing to stomach a $100,000 fine – in the wake of the FIA verdict on Ferrari's German Grand Prix actions.

That is the view of Red Bull Racing's team principal Christian Horner, who thinks the FIA's decision to not hand Ferrari further sanctions for what it did at Hockenheim – even though it is sure they were illegal team orders – means a precedent has now been set.
Last edited by Rob01 on 09 Sep 2010, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.

Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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andrew wrote:I said exactlly that at the time and got hugely binned by a certain prolific poster who claims to be a combination of white and blue. Where are they now!

Time for a victory jig me thinks!Image
Take it from a man with experience, you'll find it a pyrrhic victory at best. :lol:

The FIA servers seem to be overwhelmed at the moment. Anyone have the actual text they can post?

Project Four
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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Totally expected decision and I also agree that the rule is stupid. But whether the rule is right or wrong, or whether Ferrari or anyone else does not like the rule, it does not matter they are the rules and must be respected. Ferrari broke the rule and were caught and therefore should be punished on these premises alone.

From the Autosport article on the FIA statement:
The FIA remains convinced that Ferrari did use illegal team orders at the German Grand Prix - but it decided not to push the team further at its disciplinary hearing on Wednesday because of inconsistencies in the way the rules have been applied in the past.

However, it stated that: "there were many examples of what could have been said to be team orders in Formula 1 in recent years, and therefore there has been inconsistency in its application.
I can’t see how this can be used by the FIA as a reason why Ferrari did not receive further punishment. If this is the case and is how FIA decided fines, why was Schumacher punished in Hungary when there have been inconsistency in past punishment of driver behaviour.

Also, from the Autosport article:
The report also revealed that a few laps before the radio communication where Rob Smedley informed Massa that Alonso was faster than him, both drivers had been ordered to turn their engines down – before the Spaniard was allowed to turn his up again.

"Alonso increased his engine speed without Mr Felipe Massa's being informed," revealed the FIA document. "Mr Fernando Alonso was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Felipe Massa in the moments preceding the contentious overtaking."
So was this the reason why Alonso was faster than Massa???

Rob01
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Joined: 26 May 2010, 20:37

Re: FIA says Ferrari used team orders.....

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Thanks for your two cents. But the discussion was Not about the ability of the teams to now just issue team orders at will. No point penalties will mean more will take advantage of the ruling. Button is shaking in his boots and wants a clarity on the subject. This just opened a new can of worms for the top three to deal with. All you need is 100K and you can do what you want. If you are beaten to death with the topic please refrain from replying.

vall
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Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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from MEP's profile: Location: Germany

I believe that is indeed the case :lol:

andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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Pup wrote:
andrew wrote:I said exactlly that at the time and got hugely binned by a certain prolific poster who claims to be a combination of white and blue. Where are they now!

Time for a victory jig me thinks!Image
Take it from a man with experience, you'll find it a pyrrhic victory at best. :lol:

The FIA servers seem to be overwhelmed at the moment. Anyone have the actual text they can post?
I'll enjoy it whilst it last then!

The FIA media centre section of their website is on a go slow. Probably best to to check back in a couple of hours or even tomorrow.

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Ferrari team order at Germany - What should be the penal

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Well, going just by Autosport's summary, it looks like the WMSC is simply throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

So, something for everyone!

Honestly, regardless of which side they fell, you would hope for a bit more focus in their decision than you'd read in the average forum thread on the matter. I smell ineptitude - perhaps the entire FIA, and not just their servers were overwhelmed by this one.

Judging by the few reactions I've read, the paddock is a bit bewildered about where they stand now. Can you pay your fine and issue orders, or will the next guy get off scott free, or will the next punishment be more severe?