1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

the floor of the car shown has a core material, as can be seen on the photo.
I don't think, it's honeycomp - more likely a foam core, but I could be wrong.

The engine, gearbox, diff part of the model car shown, or of an F1 car will not move at all (at least it should not :wink: ).
The wheels including the uprights and brake etc. will move up and down in relation to the chassis, same as at the front.

You will need to decide what you would like to do.
The disscussion started out with your aim to built a full scale 1/4 F1 car model.
A T-Plate chassis is a far cry from this aim.
The pan car/T-plate chassis are still common in 1/12 electro racing - afaik.
The main reason is, that they are much lighter and the races are mainly indoor on carpet, so on a very smooth surface, therefore there is no need for a complex and heavy suspension.

I think the car shown by Petter, is a good reference as in which direction you should aim with your own model.

Unless you are going to use a scale V-engine, you will need to make some compromises with the rear of the car, as far as your engine and G/box goes.
Last edited by 747heavy on 20 Sep 2010, 15:56, edited 1 time in total.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

wrcsti
wrcsti
0
Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 04:46

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

I agree with all you said but in my case every rc track I've seen is unbelievably smooth throughout. Yes a t plate would not be very scale looking but if he wants pure speed I think it's he best way to go on a smaller car such as 1:12,10,8. Not sure how soft you can go on a 1:5 since I don't follow big scales much.

newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
0
Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

I'm leaning more with the F1 style Pushrod setup on the front and back.
There are possible advantages with a T Plate setup, but that might could a different layout from the longitudinal powertrain layout, which I really want to keep. Then again that might change(like if I want to go serious racing)
Whatever the case maybe, for now, I really would like to keep the F1 style layout
I think the car shown by Petter, is a good reference as in which direction you should aim with your own model
Sweet, that one looks like it uses a monocoque and subframe setup, which is like the setup that I want to use
Unless you are going to use a scale V-engine, you will need to make some compromises with the rear of the car, as far as your engine and G/box goes
I don’t mind having an electric motor, or nitro engines behind the monocoque. I think it would add a certain effect to the car. The thing is, I want the powertrain to be mounted in a similar way to a real F1.
So if an electric motor, mount it longitudinally in a bucket-like structure with connecting rods running from the monocoque to the engine bucket(I’m not sure if an off-the-shelf motor can be mounted stressed).
You will need to decide what you would like to do.
The disscussion started out with your aim to built a full scale 1/4 F1 car model
yeaaa I do need to decide. I want it to be close to the real thing (like with the monocoque, pushrod suspension, stressed gearbox, etc.), but the problem that I’m having with this setup is where to mount the steering servo.

Two halves of a monocoque bonded together might set it off, but if I mount the steering servo inside of the monocoque near the front(like the footwell area on a real F1), accessibility may get tough.

What I could do, maybe, is mount the steering servo where the driver seat would be, and have some sort of linkage like a running into the footwell connecting the tie rods.

Or maybe have the servo mounted outside the monocoque on the front (like where the brake fluid reservoirs would be on a real F1)
Servos would be accessible and I could do the two halves bonded together!

Image
So instead of fluid reservoirs, a steering servo!

But still, do you guys have any ideas regarding this?

The problem is where to mount the steering servo in a monocoque and still have reasonable accessibility.
Last edited by newyorkkopter on 21 Sep 2010, 14:39, edited 1 time in total.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

I don´t think the recess into the tub for the servo is a big issue you just have to plan for all the functionality you need and claim space for these functions(eg servo space for example .
The big question is of course where to put the weight of the components maybe its more efficient to have central mounted servos actuating proper rods or acting even on the steering column where you already have a rotating motion ...
I see a lot of potential trouble in stickslip effects vs slack with the myriads of components assembled in this small scale environment you will quickly add up big trouble to get reproducable results from what you are doing .
My feeling is that this small scale field is the right environment to go for flexures instead of bushings or bearings for example.this way you will erase the slack,the bind and friction ergo you produce predictable results from your activity.

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

to my knowledge, the T-Plate/pan chassis is mainly used for weight resasons.
As far as I have seen, it is still the way most 1:12 electro R/C race cars are built.
It´s also used with 1:10 electro, but there are two different classes.
I have not seen a 1:8 nitro car with a pan chassis in a long time, but maybe they still exist. There used to be a two different classes in 1:8 nitro racers back in the days I was racing them. For pan cars and for full suspension cars.
But this is a long time ago.
A friend of mine races 1:10 nitro cars in Brazil, and they are 4WD and full suspension, as is his 1:10 electro car. (both Xray)

1:10 nitro
Image

1:10 electro
Image

1:18 !!! electro car with 4WD and full suspension
Image

You have to keep in mind, that some things just don´t scale correctly.
A 1/5 R/C F1 car has probably the same amount of suspension travel on the front then a real F1 car.
You will never have 1/4 of the power of an real F1 car, this would be ~185 hp from your engine. On the other hand your car will be much lighter
The X-ray 1:10 nitro car of my friend is ~ 1600g ready to race with 4WD and full suspension.
Because you don´t have the power, you can´t have the same aero, you will not have enough power to "push it through the air".
As you have only 1/4 of the size and 1/3 of the speed, you will have much less downforce, even if you could get the same aero as an F1 car (and you can´t)

So you will need to decide on a sensible compromise. What whould you like, do you want it to look as close to F1 as possible (like the guy with the Ferrari) and accept that it can´t "race" against a 1/5 car designed to race and look a bit like an F1 car. Or do you want the best performing 1/4 or 1/5 R/c car?
If you go for the look you can built a V8 look alike engine and put a electric motor inside etc.

If you want a longitunal mounted engine you will need a change of rotation axis via the gearbox. Something like this:

Image

It´s not the most efficient g/box (friction losses), thats why you don´t find it much in R/C race cars (you do in R/C Off-road buggys).
Most R/C race cars (circuit) have the engine mounted lateral and use a simple gear reduction, as shown on the RS5 photo´s.
I have never seen a R/C car (so far) which used a stressed engine or g/box.
Because most don´t have a gear "box", meaning there is not loadbearing outer housing to the gears they use.

As for the steering, it´s again proper look vs. reasonable function.
If you want to built/design your own servos. I think it´s possible to integrate it fully into the tub, and have the steering wheel turning as well.
But if you want to use an off the shelf component, you may need to compromise a bit. An alternative would be a hydraulic activated steering.
Here you can put the servo with the mastercylinder somewhere into the sidepod and only run two small hydraulic lines to the front. Silimar as the 1/5 cars do with there brake lines. I think, this would be "doable" put I´m sure the performance when diving/racing would be not as good as with the classical servo R/C car layout.
It also would be heavier. Keep in mind that the 1/5 cars are built with weight savings in mind for best driving performance with a given engine power, looks are second order.

I think, using "Flexures" in the suspension, as what Marcus suggested is "doable", and would add to the "Scale" effect, beeing closer to the real thing.

I think, you will struggle to make a 1/5 car driving "fast" enough, using electro motors.
It´s doable, I´m sure, but maybe it is not as cheap as you hope it would be. You also would need quite a few accus to propel the car to any decent speed.
IMHO - but I´m happy to be wrong, if it turns out that way

What is your "budget" for your project.
I don´t want to discourage you, far from, and quite the opposire really, but let´s be realistic, so that we are not dissapointed later on.
You will not be able to build this with only a few hundread $.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
0
Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

I haven't really decided on a set budget that this is it not a penny more, but then again I'm not looking to spend thousands of dollars in this
So you will need to decide on a sensible compromise. What whould you like, do you want it to look as close to F1 as possible (like the guy with the Ferrari) and accept that it can´t "race" against a 1/5 car designed to race and look a bit like an F1 car. Or do you want the best performing 1/4 or 1/5 R/c car?
okay I think I needed that, the wake up call to decide on looks vs. performance. Thanks for that.
I think I'll go with performance (running cirlces around the compeition seems so much more worth it)

So for the best performing 1/4 R/C car, what elements would you recommend?

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

you have to ask the famous w-questions and don´t stop with it.
So:
what is the key to minimise lap time ,lap after lap
what are the limiting factors -like grip ,power,control-
Why would you use carbon fibre
why is it necessary for your project
the questions will steer you inevitably into the right direction and it will make you be critical towards your decision making process.

if your answer is :
I want to have it look like the real thing ...inevitably your first step away from best performance is done.
Newey does not want his RBR6 to look like anything but it should be the ultimate performer under the current rules.So inevitably all decisions are performance and time driven

To me a rc car has to have a characteristic that enables the pilot to control the thing at the ragged edge...you do not have :force feedback in the steering wheel..so how can you feel the limit? so in effect you need to cater for some
real world feedback to the driver to enable him to drive the thing on the rim of its performance.
Or choose a characteristic that enable you to control the thing :terminal understeer or progressive oversteer ...With 4WD you can of course help the situation a lot but are you using the tyre to its full potential? how much is left on the plate?
Last edited by marcush. on 24 Sep 2010, 08:36, edited 2 times in total.

newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
0
Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

thanks
yea I think power might be one of the limiting factors,
So basically go for as light as possible, and high stiffness
Do cars like the FG F1 have major weak spots that could be fixed to a certain extent with a custom job?

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

not F1 but very similar

Image
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

wrcsti
wrcsti
0
Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 04:46

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

BTW if you really want it to be your own design and build kudos to you but

HPI has the F10 and kyosho has the F103 and F104.

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

Can somebody tell the exact weight of such a 1:5 car?
I would like to know the weight of those cars in their best configuration.
It’s very important to know that because going below that weight is a set target for you.

It would be super cool If somebody can also post the center of gravity position (height, and lengthwise).
marcush. wrote:My feeling is that this small scale field is the right environment to go for flexures instead of bushings or bearings for example.this way you will erase the slack,the bind and friction ergo you produce predictable results from your activity.
Yep I also think so.

1. Proper rod ends are --- expensive compared to the rest of the car. If one costs like 9 Euro and you will need around 40 of them just for 4 inboard mounts, 2 outboard mounts, 2 for track rod and 2 pushrod mounts per wheel. You will end up with something around 360 Euro alone for those rod ends.

2. They are still to big

On the other hand flexures might demand better design of the suspension. When you design your suspension with different wishbone length, non parallel wishbones, some anti dive/squat, and a big wheel travel you should be sure the suspension is still able to move at all.
I can imagine it can become very easily super stiff.

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

not the most accurate data, but it should give an idea about the magnitude.
the data are from 1/5 touring cars, but the order of magnitude should be the same for a Formula 1 model as well.

Das Highend-Chassis SX-3
“Works-Edition”

Technische Daten:
Radstand: 535 mm
Länge: 890 mm
Breite: 395 mm
Gewicht: ca. 10 kg
Motor: Zenoah G230 RC
Hubraum: 23 ccm

Image

Technische Daten
Radstand: 535 mm
Länge: 890 mm
Breite: 395 mm
Gewicht: ca. 9,9 kg
Motor: Zenoah G230 RC HRP 03 Tuningmotor
Hubraum: 23 ccm


Das Highend-Chassis SX-3
"Champion-Edition"

So wurde die Ausstattung des SX-3 Serie 4 um folgende Details ergänzt:

• abnehmbarer Schaumstoff-Frontrammer
• Kohlefaser-Karosseriehalter vorne doppelt
• Racing-Vorderachse 09
• kugelgelagerter Servosaver
• Präzisions-Lenkgestänge
• Alu-Achsschenkel vorne deachsiert leicht
• Alu-Kugelgelenke an allen Querlenkern
• Radachsen vorne in Titan
• Felgen-Vierkantmitnehmer aus Titan
• Präzisions-Dämpferkolbenstangen mit Verschraubung Kolbenplatte
• Stoßdämpferkugelgelenke spezial mit Stahlbuchsen
• Präzisions-Spurstangensatz mit Alu-Kugelgelenken
• alle L.+R. Gewinde in Titan
• Aluminum-Getriebewelle hartcoatiert
• 4-fach Reibscheiben-Differential (oder auf Wunsch Mag.-Differential)
• 2-teilige Diff.-Böcke
• H.A.R.M. HRP 03 Tuningmotor
• 2-Backen-Rennkupplung, einstellbar
• Racing-Tank mit Klappverschluss
• Mielke "Open-up" Airbox
• Mielke Hurrican Resonanzrohr mit Masterfix-Anschluss
• Hydraulische Scheibenbremsen vorne und hinten mit GFK-Bremsscheiben
• Torxschrauben aus Edelstahl

Image
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

There apears to be a minimum weight rule for 1/5 competiton cars
the weight is set to 10 kg

full rules (European) here.

http://news.efra.ws/fileadmin/documents ... 10App5.pdf
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

I don't really like those rules. I wonder which rules are worse for creative people, the current F1 rules or those ones?
4.1.2 The engine has to be a single cylinder,2 or 4 stroke, maximum 23cm³, maximum 26cm³ for F1 and Off Road, pull starter
Why does it have to be a single cylinder engine?
A 2 cylinder 180degree engine can have lower CoG and better weight distribution.

At least I cant find anything prohibiting that you cant build your own engine.
4.4 Tires
Tires have to be black
:o What kind of guy makes such rules?
5.2 Large scale formula
Only Formula one cars following the FIA 2000/1 (or younger) Formula One Regulations are allowed.
What is wrong with older cars?

Minimum weight dry 10kg
hmm I think its possible to build lighter cars. I expect the limit to be around 8kg.
All bodies that are produced worldwide, descend from a original touring car racing and are commercially available.... will be allowed.
So you can't build your own car body? :(

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: 1/4 Scale R/C F1 (Regarding Chassis and suspension)

Post

mep wrote:
All bodies that are produced worldwide, descend from a original touring car racing and are commercially available.... will be allowed.
So you can't build your own car body? :(
I think you can, but you have to sell them to other competitors.
So you can´t spend xxxx$ in your windtunel aero development pogram and have it all for youself. :wink:

At least that´s how I understand this rule - but I could be wrong.

I know that at least at the 2007 touring car WC in Australia, the body was homologated, you could only choose between the 4 or 5 homologated bodys at the time.
But I´m sure you could apply for homologation of another body, but you have to make it "comercially available" (on your website or on ebay for example)
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci