How stiff are F1 tyres?

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DaveW
DaveW
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Marekk: while you are awaiting Ciro's response, you might like to look back in this thread to find an image of Michelin's "Tweel". That has no internal pressure to change, but manages not to collapse under load. In a conventional tyre, the spokes of that design are replaced by the sidewalls stabilised by internal air pressure. The internal volume, & hence pressure, does not have to change (& doesn't to first order) when the tyre reacts an applied load. I hope this helps a little.

marekk
marekk
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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DaveW wrote:Marekk: while you are awaiting Ciro's response, you might like to look back in this thread to find an image of Michelin's "Tweel". That has no internal pressure to change, but manages not to collapse under load. In a conventional tyre, the spokes of that design are replaced by the sidewalls stabilised by internal air pressure. The internal volume, & hence pressure, does not have to change (& doesn't to first order) when the tyre reacts an applied load. I hope this helps a little.
I hope i understand this quite well. My point is that in both solutions (conventional tire and Tweel), as well as in plain bicycle wheel, the load is transfered to and supported by all of the wheel, not just the top.
Pneumatic tire uses air or some other gas as a medium to transfer loads (except for testing of airliner's tire, when water is used due do 800psi+ pressures and some risk of blowing all of the testing facility apart, if we use air :) ).
Tweel uses supporters and pretensioned tread, bicycle wheel uses outer rim and spokes ...
You just can't say, that this load is supported by this very spoke, tweel supporter or this part of pneumatic tire.
If you make a sunday walk on this suspension bridge, as soon as you are on the bridge, all of the suspension cables will support you, not just this one directly over your head :)

DaveW
DaveW
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Apologies, Marekk. I suppose I was responding to this quote:
marekk wrote:[More load = more contact patch area = less inner volume = more inner pressure.
Simple as that.
I spend half my life watching mechanics check tyre pressures during rig tests, which are normally conducted with constant tyre pressures. They do this both with weight on & off the wheels, but I haven't noticed them letting air out of the tyres when they are loaded, even when high downforce is simulated. Other parameters, notably temperature, do affect tyre pressures, of course.

Mmm, 800 psi? I didn't think that even Lightning tyres used pressures of that magnitude. Must be a static strength test, I suppose. In which case water would be a very sensible precaution (as per Comet fuselage fatigue tests, although in that case every fuselage off the line was proof tested using air, principally to relieve stress concentrations introduced during manufacture)....

Jersey Tom
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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ringo wrote:Not to side track from marek, but what quantity of data does a tyre supplier give to a race team?
Are there any data sheets someone in the know could put up here, and censor whichever numbers or names you feel cannot be shown to non customers as ourselves.

All this talk about tyres would be helpful with a data sheet on what really matters for the tyre to do what it supposed to do. :)

The question how stiff are F1 tyres can have a range of answers. A data sheet for any tyre, not necessarily a race tyre could be helpful to those of us who really have no clue; such as myself.
Absolutely not I'm afraid.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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The only way to solve this problem is for someone to get hold of a relatively recent Bridgestone tyre. They're not so hard to get. There are places online selling wheel and tyres from about 500-600gbp.

Then load it up and measure the deflection yourselves.

From what I've seen, GT slicks are in the range of 300-400N/mm

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

Mystery Steve
Mystery Steve
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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I thought I remembered reading that they confiscate the tires and destroy them?

marekk
marekk
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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DaveW wrote:Apologies, Marekk. I suppose I was responding to this quote:
marekk wrote:[More load = more contact patch area = less inner volume = more inner pressure.
Simple as that.
I spend half my life watching mechanics check tyre pressures during rig tests, which are normally conducted with constant tyre pressures. They do this both with weight on & off the wheels, but I haven't noticed them letting air out of the tyres when they are loaded, even when high downforce is simulated. Other parameters, notably temperature, do affect tyre pressures, of course.

Mmm, 800 psi? I didn't think that even Lightning tyres used pressures of that magnitude. Must be a static strength test, I suppose. In which case water would be a very sensible precaution (as per Comet fuselage fatigue tests, although in that case every fuselage off the line was proof tested using air, principally to relieve stress concentrations introduced during manufacture)....
Maybe it's because you need only 2% nett change in pressure to support static load of 2011 spec F1 car ? And as this load is transfered to tire structure, some of it (but not all) is converted to tensile forces stretching a bit tire's structure, further reducing net volume change.

You can't see it with naked eye and it's hard to measure precisely. Most cars are to light relative to tire pressure.
The same amount of pressure change results from 8 degree celsius temperature shift. Hardly notable, but for sure drivers can feel it.

You can see it clearly on most aircrafts - i.e. in this picture: http://www.defence.gov.au/media/downloa ... 9_0072.jpg.

Or maybe i'm totally wrong with my view on this subject - not for the first time :)

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Well, I have 15 minutes after lunch, a coffee and some peace of mind. Let's use it for the forum.

Marekk, you claim that in a bicycle wheel all the spokes work. Now I see the problem we have. I assumed you had certain knowledge, my fault. So, let's take the long road here. I'll write quickly (thanks heaven I can type).

This should be a long explanation. Here you have a regular concrete-steel beam:

Concrete beam under load. It twists at the center.
Image

As you can see, under load, the beam is stressed in the lower part (it stretches), while it is compressed in the upper part (it shortens). Thus, when you make a concrete beam the steel is located in the lower part of the beam. Concrete is poor under tension, while steel is good. The converse is true: steel rods are useless under compression while concrete is good.

Stresses at the center of a beam: the top is in compression, bottom in tension. Hence the momentum at the center that makes it sag. At the supports you have only shear (not shown) caused by the vertical loads in the abutments. This torque is maximum at the center of a simply supported beam.
Image

This, on the other hand, is a pre-stressed beam. It seems the same thing, but it's not (in the same way a balloon tyre is not the same as a regular beaded tyre). Here, the steel cables have been tensioned. You can see how the beam is curved upwards because of that stressing (the cables are taut). Now the load is carried by the concrete, because ALL OF IT is under compression. The cables pre-stress it, so when you put a load on top of it, parts of the concrete relax (they lose part of the compression) and other parts increase the compression. This creates the same momentum (a par or torque) that is what resists the load forces. If I drew the same stress diagram, it wouldn't look like the two triangles I showed before, but it would look like a parallelogram. The bottom would have more compression under load than without it, while the top, even under compression, would have less.

Pre-stressed beam
Image

Stresses in a prestressed beam
Image

Notice you use the magnitude of those stresses to DESIGN THE DIMENSIONS OF THE BEAM. They are not supporting the bridge, those forces are vertical and at the abutments. You make this analysis to know how thick is the beam and the cables inside, but they are not what you analyze when you make an static analysis of the beam.

On a bicycle wheel, the same thing happens. You can make a regular spoked wheel, for example of wood. When you load it, the lower spokes resist the load through compression. End of the question.

Now, a bicycle rim has a profile with very low resistance to torque. If you take a rim without spokes and try to bend it (with a torque or momentum), you can do it with your bare hands.

So, enter prestressing: you use spokes that are stressed, with hundreds of kilos, to do the same thing as in a prestressed beam, only that the beam is not straight, but in a circle. This rim, that behaves so poorly under tension or torque, now is working under compression in the tangent direction (tangent to the rim) and under radial shear (compression you know what it is, while shear is the same force you make when you break a chocolate bar: perpendicular to the surface of the rim). For this compression and shear, aluminium is very good. It is very hard to compress the rim in a tangential direction and you can try to shear aluminium with your hands: you cannot. However, the bending moment has been "replaced" by those forces, in the same way that a pre-stressed beam has all concrete under compression to avoid tensioning it (it would break if tensioned).

Thus, the profile that few minutes ago, without spokes, was bendable, now can take the load of a huge person. The calculation of those internal forces allow you (as in a prestressed beam) to calculate the profile you need in the rim and how thick the spokes should be. As in the beam, THOSE FORCES ARE INTERNAL. They are not supporting the bike, but the rim.

When you sit on yor bike, it happens, essentially, the same thing that happens in a prestressed beam: ALL THE SPOKES ARE UNDER TENSION (Edit: I wrote COMPRESSION initially, my mistake. Thanks Tim for pointing this out), with hundreds of kilos each. If you "sum" (not like vectors, but in magnitude) all the forces in the spokes you can end easily with a force of tons. THIS FORCE IS NOT SUPPORTING YOU, IS MAKING THE RIM RIGID.

I hope everybody has followed me until this moment.

Now, when you sit on your bike, the lower spokes lose some tension, while the upper spokes gain some tension. I say "some" because your weight (a few tens of kilos) is relatively small compared with the forces that are making the rim rigid.

This is, in a way SIMILAR to what Tim Wright said. However, it's not the same as what I understood he said. The forces in the spokes are making the beam (well, the rim) rigid. The car (or your butt) is actually supported by this small increase in tension in the upper spokes. This causes a (slight) tension lose in the bottom spokes. The rest of the forces, beside this small increase in tension (60 to 80 kilos, compared with 1.000 or more kilos used in the prestressing of the spokes) from an static calculation point of view, DO NOT EXIST. They are there only to make the rim rigid.

If you say they are playing a part in the static equilibrium of the spoked wheel, it would be as claiming (and calculating) the molecular forces between the atoms of wood that make a wood tyre rigid. When you speak of a wood spoked wheel YOU DO NOT TAKE IN ACCOUNT THE FORCES BETWEEN THE ATOMS IN THE WOOD. THOSE ARE INTERNAL TO THE MATERIAL AND IT WOULD BE WRONG TO DRAW THEM OR TAKE THEM IN ACCOUNT IN A DIAGRAM OF FORCES IN THE WHEEL. Certainly, in a spoked bicycle wheel, those tension (again, I wrote compression initially, my mistake) forces, that, I repeat, are there to make the rim rigid, DO NOT CARRY YOUR BUTT.

A Formula One tyre works the same: the air is making the tread rigid. The ACTUAL WEIGHT OF THE CAR is supported by the walls at the top. The rest of the forces, which are radial and CANCEL MUTUALLY (one side of the wheel is being pushed outside by the air, but is compensated by the diametrically opposed side) ARE THERE ONLY TO MAKE THE TREAD RIGID. Hence the picture I made. I hope this is clear.

OF COURSE you can claim that those forces transfer the load, but, I assure you, this phrase is totally nuts (not you, but the phrase).

It would be like, I don't know, assuming that the Planet Earth is what transfers the cars around the track, so, if you want to know the speed of the cars, FIRST you have to calculate how fast the Earth move in space, and FINALLY arrive to the correct speeds of the cars by calculating the difference between their speeds around the center of the Galaxy and the speed of the Earth.

If I write a post calculating top speeds at Spa, and I start by calculating the speed of Earth around the Sun, people would look at me and say: "Ciro, what did you smoke this morning?".

In the same way, the walls at the bottom do not carry the weight of the car. Is nuts to create an static diagram that shows all forces on the walls, and FINALLY subtract the force in the lower walls from the force in the upper walls to arrive to the correct force diagram (which is the one I drew). Those INTERNAL forces you use when you calculate how thick is the tyre, not how the forces between the axles and the tyres are. Got it?

You also ask how a car moves forward. We had a very detailed thread on it. Now, I have to work, this evening I will try to look for it ans summarize it here.

Finally, I say again: torsional stiffness is treated in Pacejka book, Chapter 9.4.2, I don't have it at hand but I have good memory. They are from 30 to 100 hz. Please, read the book (or somebody who has it at hand, please, give us some ballpark figures).

End of discussion as far as I can go. If you get it, you get it. If you don't get it, you don't get it. I do not like to repeat arguments. "Treads" become boring then (ha, ha! What? Did I already said that? Impossible... am I repeating myself? Funny, isn't it? No? Well...).

BTW, even the Wikipedia article on spoked wheels suffers from the same confusion it seems to me you have. Half the references are written by guys that clearly do not have the slightest idea of how a structure works, so the article ends affirming (sigh) that half the people thinks that the lower spokes in a bicycle wheel actually support the weight. If you think so, well, good luck with that, and please, explain to me the buildings they have designed, so I won't enter them, specially during an earthquake.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 18 Feb 2011, 02:17, edited 3 times in total.
Ciro

Carlos
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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In that case, it could be said; that a bicycle wheel is a tensegrity structure?
Just a thought: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensegrity

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Tim.Wright
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:When you sit on yor bike, it happens, essentially, the same thing that happens in a prestressed beam: ALL THE SPOKES ARE UNDER COMPRESSION, with hundreds of kilos each. If you "sum" (not like vectors, but in magnitude) all the forces in the spokes you can end easily with a force of tons
Ciro, I dont understand how the spokes can be in compression. They will buckle immediately.
Ciro Pabón wrote:THIS FORCE IS NOT SUPPORTING YOU, IS MAKING THE RIM RIGID.
I think the bike spokes are a good analogy, so I will stick to it here. The basic facts as I see are;

1. For an unloaded wheel, the vector sum of all of the tension forces in the spokes/sidewall must equal zero.

2. There are only two elements acting on the wheel/hub centre. Vertical force from the person and the combined force coming from the spokes. Therefore, they must be equal an opposite for the static case. I.e. sum of forces equal zero.

Therefore the sidewall/spokes MUST support you.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

Carlos
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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I think that some of the spokes are in compression while others are under tension.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Sorry, Tim, my mistake. I meant tension. I corrected the post, thank you very much. I wrote it rather quickly.

Yes, Carlos, tensegrity structures are prestressed structures that share many of the properties of inflated structures. The bending moment is caused by differences in the compression, plus there are no "external" bending moments, because the load members are in compression and all under equilibrium. Several of the tension members are joined at the load members, just like the spokes in a wheel: in a bike wheel you have a pair of spokes, in slightly different directions to give you tangential stability. In a tensegrity structure, tension members prestress the loaded ones. I don't remember which stadium for the Olympics was made this way.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 18 Feb 2011, 02:09, edited 2 times in total.
Ciro

marekk
marekk
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Carlos wrote:I think that some of the spokes are in compression while others are under tension.
I think, if you preload every spoke with lets say 50 kg (carefully, we don't want to destroy our rim) they'll will always (OK, till someone 100kg+ is on this bike) work in tension.

marekk
marekk
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:
A Formula One tyre works the same: the air is making the tread rigid. The ACTUAL WEIGHT OF THE CAR is supported by the walls at the top. The rest of the forces, which are radial and CANCEL MUTUALLY (one side of the wheel is being pushed outside by the air, but is compensated by the diametrically opposed side) ARE THERE ONLY TO MAKE THE TREAD RIGID. Hence the picture I made. I hope this is clear.

OF COURSE you can claim that those forces transfer the load, but, I assure you, this phrase is totally nuts (not you, but the phrase).

In the same way, the walls at the bottom do not carry the weight of the car. Is nuts to create an static diagram that shows all forces on the walls, and FINALLY substract the force in the lower walls from the force in the upper walls to arrive to the correct force diagram (which is the one I drew). Those INTERNAL forces you use when you calculate how thick is the tyre, not how the forces between the axles and the tyres are. Got it?
Ciro, i'm realy impressed :shock:
I think i finally got it. Your point is that all of the forces acting on the wheel are in equlibrium and for a given load facing down, you get (statistically) the same amount of force counteracting it.
Which is obvious.
But, as you wrote yourself, all of the spokes/radials are acting on the rim (those on the top statisticaly more then those down). All of the forces are INTERNAL to the tire/rim system, and all are contributing to load bearing. I think :D

Only then is something like that possible (static load on 1 main gear tire in this plane is about 25 tonnes):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yi9C8NE3Ek[/youtube]

What was the question on the start of this thread ? :D

Carlos
Carlos
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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"What was the question on the start of this thread?" :D

=D> :lol: :lol: =D>
Thank you.

This is the first time I laughed today. Marekk, what a droll sense of humour. There's not enough on the forum.