Simulator technology

[DaveKillens]

So I have heard of very rare occasions drivers getting seasick from their own driving (usually has to do with some malfunction of the inner ear or driving in the dark).But a lot if not all drivers suffer bad nausea in simulators ,vomitting after very short time repeatedly...must be something of the body realising that this is not real...so you are teaching your body NOT to hear on some feelings`? what if exactly those fealings were useful or even necessary for you to exploit the full potential of the car?

First off, I'm not a medical professional so this is more guesses by a layman.

The simulator featured at the beginning of this post does not impart realistic forces to the driver. For instance, when you watch when the car is under braking, the cockpit pitches over, changing the vector of gravity from straight down to near horizontal. To the body, it feels just like when braking.

But we know that braking forces can easily be up to as much as 3 G's, yet using the method of pitching the nose down, it cannot be over one G.

So the eyes see something that tells the brain that the driver is experiencing 3 G's braking force, yet the simulator is only generating almost one G. The body itself feels the one G, the eyes and brain believe it's 3 G's, and when the two signals meet and aren't equal, the brain gets confused.

Motion sickness or kinetosis, also known as travel sickness, is a condition in which a disagreement exists between visually perceived movement and the vestibular system's sense of movement. Depending on the cause it can also be referred to as seasickness, car sickness, simulation sickness or airsickness.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_sickness

[HampusA]

well iracing has competitors just like you do. so it would be wrong of you in my opinion to rubbish DK like that when he has clear reasons not to talk about it before it's even released.

Not "rubbishing" anyone. But there's no sense in everyone running around jerking each other off to the "new tire model" as if it's going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Are there more detailed and complex tire models out there? Absolutely. By orders of magnitude. Similarly, are there much more simple and incomplete ones? Sure.

iRacing does have competitors. The way you outsell your competitors is by marketing your strengths. "Come buy our service! We have temperature effects! Grip degradation! Transients!" To date, all they've said is that some new model is coming... and they've worked a long time on it... but doesn't really say where the improvement is or what it is.

when someobe uses the word "meh" its usually ment to rubbish something. in this case DK because you did not get any information.

Why on earty would he explain in detail what he has done to a product that is not even out yet?

that's like mclaren releasing a vido on their f duct before the season started.
he has said that there will some form of papers written about this, but you could atleast let the man release the product first?

he is kind off talking about what is going to be simulated. there are 3 more videos to watch where he goes into detail on how a tire works and how it distributes the load etc. things that will be in the simulation model.
and frankly, i've heard more from him then you so you can't really blame him for keeping quiet now. it would be downright stupid of him to let his competitors know how he's come up with this model.

we just have to wait and see, personally i think it will be an revolution in terms of sim games.

[Richard]

A rapid rate of change in the pitch could generate G greater than 1 due to centrifugal force (or centripetal if you're a pedant )

You'd need a very large area with a very long track with the cockpit on the end of a long arm with significant vertical and horizontal clearances to generate the experience of one lap.

[DaveKillens]

You'd need a very large area with a very long track with the cockpit on the end of a long arm with significant vertical and horizontal clearances to generate the experience of one lap.

Ka-ching.

In fact, anything less than the real track dimensions would deliver less than 100% realism. So it has to be understood that cockpit simulators only simulate the experience, never deliver the honest goods.

But for most cockpit simulators, the idea is to get the driver's head into the race. As graphics cards, computers, and software evolve, the realism has been steadily moving closer and closer to real world fidelity, it becomes easier to trick the driver into forgetting he's operation a computer, but instead is involved in a race.

And trust , it can be done, I've been there and done it. I've been drenched in sweat after races, I've torn wheels right off the hubs in a frenzy of adrenaline-fueled fierce racing, and I've finished races looking like a madman, all thanks to being totally immersed in the experienced.

[Jersey Tom]

we just have to wait and see, personally i think it will be an revolution in terms of sim games.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion

[Giblet]

iRacing has done a great job, but they have also made mistakes with their tire model, and this new one will have teething as well at first. The only way to make a tire model as good as it can be, is to have more computing horsepower than the lowest common denominator that iRacing is designed for. It doesn't have to simulate real world results, it just has to output them form simulated inputs.

I am one of the biggest fans of iRacing out there, but I also know that my top 25 world record in the Solstice was due to a mistaken update that gave me amazing grip before it was fixed and went back to normal.

Also, as good as the tire model is/will be, you are still limited by network resolution of different drivers, so only your vehicle moves around the track properly.

It might be one of the best for sim racing, but it's still pretty far removed from the real world.

[HampusA]

we just have to wait and see, personally i think it will be an revolution in terms of sim games.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion

Obviously you are to
I just wish you could shed some light in terms of more details regarding tire models etc. I understand you can´t but nevertheless

[HampusA]

iRacing has done a great job, but they have also made mistakes with their tire model, and this new one will have teething as well at first. The only way to make a tire model as good as it can be, is to have more computing horsepower than the lowest common denominator that iRacing is designed for. It doesn't have to simulate real world results, it just has to output them form simulated inputs.

I am one of the biggest fans of iRacing out there, but I also know that my top 25 world record in the Solstice was due to a mistaken update that gave me amazing grip before it was fixed and went back to normal.

Also, as good as the tire model is/will be, you are still limited by network resolution of different drivers, so only your vehicle moves around the track properly.

It might be one of the best for sim racing, but it's still pretty far removed from the real world.

Yea he basically said that some numbers of this (present) tire model are basically tweaked to feel right or to do the right things.

How much would a super advanced tire model really crave in terms of CPU power?
Maybe Jersey can shed some light on that..

Network resolution means what? Netcode? Ping? FPS?

How far away is it really? DK hasn´t said anything but you seem to know more than i do about this new tire model or atleast how good they can get.

[Jersey Tom]

A "super advanced" tire model... is generally a full finite element model. Every bit as computationally intensive as CFD for aero work, if not much more so in some respects.

[mep]

I don't think the cause for motion sickness is because the simulator can't simulate high g's. If you just have a PC you don't experience any g's and you can drive there for hours. I think the cause is rather in some discrepancy between eye and ear (feeled motion). Maybe because the simulated force has some kind of delay to the action you see on the screen. Might be just a few milli seconds but your body is very sensitive to such things. Delays can be caused because you need to move some mass in sometimes really short times. There are some physical limits whit doing this. Also there might be problems to keep G forces up for long time. Then there is a overlay of motion forces and gravity force. Like when you brake you tilt the seat to the front to simulate braking but on the same time you reduce "imagined gravity force" so its like running over a hill and braking. The mind can find several solutions for the situation a driver is in with a given force experience. It's no wonder this is very confusing. It might be similar to being inside a ship in rough sea without any window to see the horizon. You still see the internal of the ship but your mind can't solve what position you have to the surrounding area or what kind of motion you experience.


As a child I was a couple times in amusement park where they had a swing with a rotating housing. It was a closed cabin where the seats swing to one side to the other quite simple. On some point they switched the light off and turned the circular housing of the swing by 180 degree. Switching the light back on you see yourself standing upside down while the swing rests in the turning position. Lets say something like 60°. Your eyes see something else than your body feels. Most people feel very bad after just a couple minutes in this machine.

[Giblet]

[
Network resolution means what? Netcode? Ping? FPS?

I just mean since people have a gaming average of lets say 50 - 250ms. At 50ms there are 20 updates a second, enough to pretty accurately gauge braking points and turn in points. When at 250ms, you are only getting 4 updates a second, and a quarter second is infinite in braking points.

This is why if you are trying to shave that final .5-1 second off of your best lap to run with the aliens, you need to study their replays they have posted that you can download, or videos online. This is the only way to see the telemetry of the brake and gas and wheel. Using your own replay of another car from a practice or race session will only show you an approximation of when their inputs were actually made.

What the new iRacing 2.0 will give us, is MOTEC so will be able to output industry standard telemetry and analyze it.

[Jersey Tom]

MoTeC? I was under the impression they were going to McLaren/ATLAS.

[Giblet]

You may be correct, I may have read in the forums about motec being used but it appears to be a hacktogether by someone.

On their press release they just say "New telemetry output for the data hungry racers."

[HampusA]

it's Mclaren Electronic Systems, will be nice to get for sure.
Maybe not for everyone but teams will now be able to have their designated setup guy who just loves these things.

will be nice aswell to compare alien laptimes after the tire model aswell. It will put a lid on the crazy slip angles we have now which does nothing to the tires in terms of heat etc.
in the Riley some even use less BB in the front then rear.. i can't go below 52% but they use the right foot as sort of a dynamic BB.
Staff said this will also be solved or as DK said, hundreds of small problems have been solved.

[lolzi]

I just mean since people have a gaming average of lets say 50 - 250ms. At 50ms there are 20 updates a second, enough to pretty accurately gauge braking points and turn in points. When at 250ms, you are only getting 4 updates a second, and a quarter second is infinite in braking points.

This is why if you are trying to shave that final .5-1 second off of your best lap to run with the aliens, you need to study their replays they have posted that you can download, or videos online. This is the only way to see the telemetry of the brake and gas and wheel. Using your own replay of another car from a practice or race session will only show you an approximation of when their inputs were actually made.

I think you might be mixing two things here - the rate of updates isn't at all dependant on the ping or latency or "ms" one normally sees in games. You can have 1000 ms ping and still get 100 updates per second, your information would just be a second old.