Idea for V6 turbo configuration

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
matt21
86
Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 13:17

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

Good point. But maybe they install a waste gate as backup. But I think these will also be electronically controlled.

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

Indy cars were ground effect cars, and that gave designers the freedom to put anything they want in the sidepods, because no undercutting was necessary, unlike contemporary F1. With smaller engine, F1 V6T certainty will not be designed in a way to make sidepods wider in order to fit intercooler or turbo. Besides, we are talking about single turbo, so the logic suggests that there is also only a single intercooler, fitted along the cars centerline, just as turbo, as well as that exhaust must be of symmetrical length on both sides and as short as possible to get most of it.

Perhaps the ultimate configuration would be to have primary turbine located at the end of the engine, just above the clutch with the axle along the bottom of V (within the engine block), while the compressor would be at the front end of the engine. That way exhaust wouldn't have to go up and over, post-turbo exhaust outlet would therefore be extremely short - not more than 100-200mm, the the intercooler could be fitted between the V defined by cylinder heads, and the whole engine would actually be lower than n.a. 2.4L because turbo engine requires no trumpets and airbox.

Image
Last edited by manchild on 13 Oct 2011, 11:19, edited 1 time in total.

Pieoter
Pieoter
4
Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 05:24

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

matt21 wrote:
Pieoter wrote:BUT, there is no limit to the energy input by the MGUH (Apart from only being able to use ONE of the ERS systems to recharge the ES).
I think this is wrong.
5.2.6 The ERS may only recover energy from the car via a single MGUK and/or a single MGUH.
Read 5.2.9

User avatar
matt21
86
Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 13:17

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

But the ERS is composed of the ES, the MGUH and the MGUK according to 1.24 to 1.27.

I think article 5.2.9 is talking about the normal battery.

noname
noname
11
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 11:55
Location: EU

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

manchild wrote:Besides, we are talking about single turbo, so the logic suggests that there is also only a single intercooler, fitted along the cars centerline, just as turbo, as well as that exhaust must be of symmetrical length on both sides and as short as possible to get most of it.

Perhaps the ultimate configuration would be to have primary turbine located at the end of the engine (...), while the compressor would be at the front end of the engine.
If the compressor will have two outlets than two intercoolers are possible, although one could be a better solution from the packaging point of view.

How would you like to connect turbine and compressor when they will be placed so far away from each other ? That would be a real rotordynamic challenge, after all we are talking about supercritical rotor.

Regards

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

I thought that a shaft could do the job.

Perhaps the compressed air used for valves could be used combined with turbo pneumatic bearings instead of conventional ones?

User avatar
P.S.
5
Joined: 23 Oct 2011, 17:09
Location: Germany

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

Sorry for interruped this thread with a maybe stupid question, but I couldn´t find the answer so far.
I wonder if it would be allowed to take an axial turbine instead a usual and cheap radial.

Is far as I know an axial turbine can compress the air more efficient than a radial. Of course its far more complicate to build so it will be expensive... But its F1 :)

So is an axial turbine banned by the F1 rules?
Thanks

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

Axial compressors stall easier, and they are more designed for constant speed running.
Very sensitive.
For Sure!!

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

But they are allowed AFAIK.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
P.S.
5
Joined: 23 Oct 2011, 17:09
Location: Germany

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:But they are allowed AFAIK.
Thanks. If this is true I´m surprised they didn´t shut tis door. I´m no expert in this engine stuff, but can imagine that there is some room for improvements.
ringo wrote:Axial compressors stall easie...
correct, but as you mentioned that is because of a design point. Its all a question of number of blades, airfoils etc. etc. So maybe its possible to develope a axial compressor with better performance.

User avatar
flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

you could also build a turbine engine with a piston recovery stage ala. Group B rally Then we could also get big fireballs out the rear.

User avatar
matt21
86
Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 13:17

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

To be honest, never heard of a "piston recovery stage".
Do you mean some kind of anti-lag system? And if yes, which kind?

User avatar
flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

matt21 wrote:To be honest, never heard of a "piston recovery stage".
Do you mean some kind of anti-lag system? And if yes, which kind?
you burn most of the fuel in the turbo and piston engine is there to convert the energy in an RPM the wheels can handle. This is where some of the group B car were heading with the massive amounts of antilag they were using.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

Image

I do like this design and I think it could actually happen in 2014.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

FMG_V6_btb
FMG_V6_btb
0
Joined: 01 Nov 2011, 02:08

Re: Idea for V6 turbo configuration

Post

The initial idea you proposed was used in F1 in the past turbo era by Ferrari among other teams.

Image