Indian GP 2011 - Buddh

[ell66]

Did you not see the contact in Monaco? Both with Felipe & with Maldonado. He wasn't using his mind. Same with Singapore. Or Silverstone. But Monaco was especially ignorant. I believe Massa is more to blame than Hamilton for the Indian GP incident, but still feel it was a racing incident. But they've had lots of contact this season and up until now it's been on Lewis not Felipe so I think he's justified in his opinion about Lewis. Many former drivers criticized Lewis up until the Indian GP about his driving & accidents. So it's not just MAS who feels this way.

Out of interest, what do you see as different between the Ham/Maldonado incident at Monaco, and the Ham/Massa incident at India? I see them both as very similar – Hamilton got most of the way (not all the way) up the inside, the other car turned in early, and went straight for the apex rather than giving room. Am I missing a distinction?

The major difference is Hamilton was penalized in Monaco. I feel that Hamilton was wrong in the Monaco incident and not so much in India.

I completely disagree, Just look at the incident at monaco, maldonando turns in so early its unreal, just as massa did at the hair pin, you simply cant turn in on drivers, NONE of the top guys do it, only tools like massa and pastor, you just have to look at hamiltons and schumachers battle in monaco, both gave room when they were respectivley overtaken.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think Hamilton is the Roger Federer of overtaking so he knows when the overtakes will work or not. The risk factors. The problem is, the maneuvers that he has been doing are too much on the extreme side so the regular driver will not know how to position his car to SAFELY defend against the move. I think that sometimes for the sake of continuing on you have to yield to the aggressor. A chess move with the queen for a rook. A suicide bomber with a grenade in his palms. You have to yield to his demands to continue living so you can get your revenge another day.

[foxmulder_ms]

I am so glad Massa got penalized. Massa, knowingly, crushed Hamilton.

[CHT]

i am quite surprise to see adrian newey at india.

was he there to gather more information about the new track or trying out new parts for 2012?

[mahesh248f1]

i am quite surprise to see adrian newey at india.

was he there to gather more information about the new track or trying out new parts for 2012?

He is the Chef Aero , why would he not be in India ?

[raymondu999]

Hi Mahesh; welcome to the forums. Newey is actually Chief Technical Officer; rather than Aero. Chief Aerodynamicist is Peter Prodromou.

It was said recently that Adrian Newey would be staying back at base the whole time to be working on the 2012 car; so unless they were testing something, or he wanted to see something firsthand, it was a bit surprising that he showed up.

[Traction]

James Allen has an interesting article on Martin Whitmarshs'take on Hamilton vs Button. Interesting little footnote at the end regarding Hamilton /Massa incident.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/10/h ... om-button/

[beelsebob]

Okay, got some tit bits that clarify exactly why Massa got a penalty here, but Hamilton did in Monaco:

The reason Massa was penalised is that the stewards apply an unwritten rule – if the car is visible in your peripheral vision at the turn in point the overtaker is legitimately fighting for the place, and you can't simply turn in on them. Here though it was slightly different. They saw that Hamilton clearly got visible in Massa's peripheral vision, and that Massa then moved back across to the racing line. This was seen as surrendering the corner. Massa then changed his mind, and cut across on Hamilton. Even though this cut across happened at the breaking point, and even though Massa could not see Hamilton in his peripheral vision at that point, the fact that he obviously knew Hamilton was there, and had obviously given up the defence already meant he was the one penalised.

By contrast, in Monaco, Maldonado did not see Hamilton in his peripheral vision until after he turned in, and arguably wouldn't have, even if he hadn't turned in early, thus Hamilton got the penalty there.

[vall]

I think Hamilton is the Roger Federer of overtaking so he knows when the overtakes will work or not. The risk factors. The problem is, the maneuvers that he has been doing are too much on the extreme side so the regular driver will not know how to position his car to SAFELY defend against the move. I think that sometimes for the sake of continuing on you have to yield to the aggressor. A chess move with the queen for a rook. A suicide bomber with a grenade in his palms. You have to yield to his demands to continue living so you can get your revenge another day.

bla-bla, he is good in overtaking, but I think he made his name as "exceptional overtaker" around the time when he had at his disposal such goodies as F-duct, KERS, that the other did not have. His overtake at the time were heavily assisted and help by those devices. Nothing more. We have seen him lately to struggle behind Marcs, Toro Rossos's, etc.

My point is, be more realistic.

[Traction]

imo in Monaco LH had no business sticking his car into the space that he did...India he certainly did but in both cases I still reckon with a bit of patience things would have worked out a bit better for him.

[raymondu999]

I think Hamilton is the Roger Federer of overtaking so he knows when the overtakes will work or not. The risk factors. The problem is, the maneuvers that he has been doing are too much on the extreme side so the regular driver will not know how to position his car to SAFELY defend against the move. I think that sometimes for the sake of continuing on you have to yield to the aggressor. A chess move with the queen for a rook. A suicide bomber with a grenade in his palms. You have to yield to his demands to continue living so you can get your revenge another day.

bla-bla, he is good in overtaking, but I think he made his name as "exceptional overtaker" around the time when he had at his disposal such goodies as F-duct, KERS, that the other did not have. His overtake at the time were heavily assisted and help by those devices. Nothing more. We have seen him lately to struggle behind Marcs, Toro Rossos's, etc.

My point is, be more realistic.

That's a bit unfair; there have been races where he has provided fantastic overtaking without F-duct/KERS.

[wesley123]

I think Hamilton is the Roger Federer of overtaking so he knows when the overtakes will work or not. The risk factors. The problem is, the maneuvers that he has been doing are too much on the extreme side so the regular driver will not know how to position his car to SAFELY defend against the move. I think that sometimes for the sake of continuing on you have to yield to the aggressor. A chess move with the queen for a rook. A suicide bomber with a grenade in his palms. You have to yield to his demands to continue living so you can get your revenge another day.

bla-bla, he is good in overtaking, but I think he made his name as "exceptional overtaker" around the time when he had at his disposal such goodies as F-duct, KERS, that the other did not have. His overtake at the time were heavily assisted and help by those devices. Nothing more. We have seen him lately to struggle behind Marcs, Toro Rossos's, etc.

My point is, be more realistic.

Indeed in 2007 and 2008 he already ran the F-Duct and KERS, the latter not even being allowed back then

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Lewis is a fantastic overtaker.

But that what makes him strong in this area also provides his biggest weakness. He is an instinctive passer, whereas someone like Button is probably more measured in his approach.
The difference is that Hamilton will pull of more manoeuvres, but also risk clouting the other car more.

Any overtake requires the other guy to play ball. And in this case, Hamilton should have taken into consideration the guy in front was Massa. Equally Massa should have known it was Hamilton.
I have reviewed the video several times and all I can say is racing incident. Hamilton had claim to the inside, and Massa the racing line. At this particular corner had Massa gone wider he would have got dust on his tyres and could forget about keeping Hamilton behind him, hence why I think he kept tight on the racing line.

When in all is said and done, both drivers could have done without it. And you can see why Hamilton went for the gap, and also why Massa turned in. Sometimes I think we all look for a scapegoat when theres none to be had.

[Hemsy]

Lewis is a fantastic overtaker.

But that what makes him strong in this area also provides his biggest weakness. He is an instinctive passer, whereas someone like Button is probably more measured in his approach.
The difference is that Hamilton will pull of more manoeuvres, but also risk clouting the other car more.

Any overtake requires the other guy to play ball. And in this case, Hamilton should have taken into consideration the guy in front was Massa. Equally Massa should have known it was Hamilton.
I have reviewed the video several times and all I can say is racing incident. Hamilton had claim to the inside, and Massa the racing line. At this particular corner had Massa gone wider he would have got dust on his tyres and could forget about keeping Hamilton behind him, hence why I think he kept tight on the racing line.

When in all is said and done, both drivers could have done without it. And you can see why Hamilton went for the gap, and also why Massa turned in. Sometimes I think we all look for a scapegoat when theres none to be had.

This! Very objective post JET. I too have viewed the incident several times & think that it was a racing incident with no one to blame.

[beelsebob]

I have reviewed the video several times and all I can say is racing incident. Hamilton had claim to the inside, and Massa the racing line. At this particular corner had Massa gone wider he would have got dust on his tyres and could forget about keeping Hamilton behind him, hence why I think he kept tight on the racing line.

This is why Hamilton is such a good overtaker. By putting Massa in a position where he was going to lose a lot of grip by the line he would have to legitimately take, he pretty much guaranteed the pass. But as you rightly say – this requires Massa to play ball and actually take the line he's required to, which doesn't sound so likely.