Indian GP 2011 - Buddh

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Ok where getting somewhere!

Now put Hamilton in Massa's shoes. Will he yield as readily as some people wanted Massa in this situation?
I honestly don't think he would, and would most likely have done precisely as Massa.

[Traction]

Massa has massive respect for Lewis...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=KOb9atyI8mg

[beelsebob]

Ok where getting somewhere!

Now put Hamilton in Massa's shoes. Will he yield as readily as some people wanted Massa in this situation?
I honestly don't think he would, and would most likely have done precisely as Massa.

I completely agree that it being Massa he wouldn't. But who you're racing against should not affect how rules are applied. The bottom line is that Hamilton had every right to expect the other racer (even if they're a bolshy git with history) to give him room on the apex once he was along side. I agree that Hamilton should have seen it coming (and in fact when he was interviewed he said the reason he was so early on the breaks was because he could see it coming in Massa's positioning). But, that doesn't mean that Hamilton was at fault. Massa was the one who made the manoeuvre that caused the collision, he knew very well where Hamilton was, and still moved. That's why Massa should indeed have been penalised (and was) in my view.

To spin your argument around – Massa should have known that Hamilton would try to make even pretty extreme moves stick, and that he probably wouldn't back out of it, and would risk the crash. He should have known very well that Hamilton's car would still be there when he turned in.

[chrys]

Herbert: We made right call to penalise Massa
http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/11/01/herbe ... ise-massa/

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Ok, so was Hamilton along side?

I read that the stewards gave the penalty due to Hamilton being in Massa's peripheral vision. However, the racing line belonged to the car in front, and at no point did hamiltons front tyre go ahead of Massa's.

So if massa is on the racing line, and ahead of Hamilton, why should he yield? The BBC commentary team alluded to this too and where equally surprised as myself as to massa getting the penalty. I share their view that in this case, no blame should be apportioned to either driver.

[beelsebob]

Ok, so was Hamilton along side?

I read that the stewards gave the penalty due to Hamilton being in Massa's peripheral vision. However, the racing line belonged to the car in front, and at no point did hamiltons front tyre go ahead of Massa's.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the racing line belongs to the car in front from. The racing line most certainly does not belong to the car in front when being on the racing line involves steering into someone you know is there.

So if massa is on the racing line, and ahead of Hamilton, why should he yield?

Because staying on the racing line involves steering into a car that he knows exists.

The BBC commentary team alluded to this too and where equally surprised as myself as to massa getting the penalty. I share their view that in this case, no blame should be apportioned to either driver.

The BBC commentary team alluded after the race to being surprised not because they thought Hamilton was at fault, but because they thought that the stewards would penalise Hamilton no matter what.

[Gerhard Berger]

In these situations where someone tries to dive down the inside of someone (without being fully alongside the other driver) into a high speed corner, someone has to yield. With Alonso vs Webber at Spa this year, Alonso yielded. With Button vs Hamilton at China this year, Button yielded. With Alonso vs Massa at Hockenheim last year, Alonso yielded, etc. In this case neither did and unsurprisingly it resulted in a collision. That's racing, hence i thought it was harsh to give Massa the penalty.

Sure the collision could have been avoided, but you can say that about any collision in F1. They are racing for position, so collisions will sometimes happen when 2 drivers fight over the same piece of track. I think penalties should only be handed out for a clear breach of rules (so things like intentionally taking another driver out, intetionally forcing someone off the track).

[beelsebob]

In these situations where someone tries to dive down the inside of someone (without being fully alongside the other driver) into a high speed corner, someone has to yield. With Alonso vs Webber at Spa this year, Alonso yielded. With Button vs Hamilton at China this year, Button yielded. With Alonso vs Massa at Hockenheim last year, Alonso yielded, etc. In this case neither did and unsurprisingly it resulted in a collision. That's racing, hence i thought it was harsh to give Massa the penalty.

Sure the collision could have been avoided, but you can say that about any collision in F1. They are racing for position, so collisions will sometimes happen when 2 drivers fight over the same piece of track. I think penalties should only be handed out for a clear breach of rules (so things like intentionally taking another driver out, intetionally forcing someone off the track).

The issue is that in order for this accident to happen it required a knowing action on Massa's part. Massa knew Hamilton was there. Massa knew that he had space to run round the outside (but that it would almost certainly loose him the place). Massa knew that going for the apex would cause a collision. He still made the choice to go for the apex. That's really clear cut in my book. Massa caused the collision, plain and simple.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Massa was in the racing line do you not agree beelsebob?

[beelsebob]

Massa was in the racing line do you not agree beelsebob?

Yes I do.

[Richard]

Whilst I'm loathe to open up the debate about Button setting a fastest Q3 lap with yellow flags, an offline discussion did prompt me to find another example of how a driver can appear to set a fast lap under yellow flag conditions.

I'm posting this to give insight about what stewards examine. I'm not gong to debate if a particular instance was correct or not. This is about highlighting the technicalities of the process. (there's a clue in the title of this website!)

The stewards look at the telemetry to see if a driver has eased off compared to previous laps, for example staying in a lower gear or lower revs. They also look at the video footage to verify the driver's position when the yellow flag was triggered.

This happened in Japan this year and we have the benefit of the published stewards report. You can read it for yourself in document 25 in the Japanese race data zip file viewtopic.php?p=286619#p286619

The Stewards, having received a report from the Race Director, that the following cars (3 Lewis Hamilton, 9 Bruno Senna, 18 Sebastien Buemi, 20 Heikki Kovalainen) set a best sector time whilst yellow flags were displayed in Sector 15, heard from the drivers and team representatives and having considered video and telemetry evidence the Stewards note:

(i) the yellow flag section of track was 278m whereas the timed sector was 2557m

(ii) the telemetry indicated there had been some reduction in speed by each driver

Accordingly the Stewards decide to take no further action.

[beelsebob]

JET – I think it's pretty clear at this point. Where we have a fundamental disagreement is based on what the racing line entitles you to.

Your assertion seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) that if you are (a) on the racing line (b) ahead of the other car you can pretty much take your line as you please, it is at that point up to the other driver to get out the way.

My assertion (and it appears to be the FIA's too) that if you're (a) on the racing line (b) unable to see the other car in your peripheral vision, you can take your line as you please, and it's up to the other driver to get out of the way.

This distinction in b is why Massa was penalised. It's not about who's in front, it's about who can see where the other guy is. Massa could, and hence had no right to simply drive into the side of him.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Massa was in the racing line do you not agree beelsebob?

Yes I do.

Ok.

So if massa is ahead, and on the racing line why should he not turn in? Surely the car behind would know it's a shrinking gap, and the car in front would know that going off line he may as well yield.
A rock and a hard place!

To avoid incident, massa should have given room and Hamilton should have know it was a closing gap, and not been there.
But this being racing and all, with guys who are paid to race.... They did what we all would. IMO

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Massa kept on the racing line going into the corner. This is my view.

Once massa was on the racing line, ahead of Hamilton heading into a corner it is he who has dominion. Yet I appreciate Hamilton was quicker and was within the "peripheral" vision of massa.

Basically, should he jump out the way and say "there you go" whilst ahead and on the racing line?

[Richard]

beeslebob- I agree.

In India the track is wide enough for them to go around the bend side by side, just as we have seen countless times this season. Massa knew Hamilton was alongside him and Massa had enough track to stay where he was.

The closer parallel is Hamilton v Kobayashi in Spa. Then Hamilton admitted it was his fault, he should have left Kobayashi enough room to stay on track.

The point is not about a pedantic analysis of the mythical racing line, it is simply allowing your competitor enough space to stay on track where possible.

We've seen countless examples of how to to do it between Hamilton/Button and also Alonso/Webber in Spa and Vettel/Alsonso in Monza.

We've also seen how it should not be done with Hamilton/Kobayashi in Spa, Schumacher in Hungary in 2010, and Massa/Hamilton in India.

The common theme is that there was space for the defending car to not force the attacking car off track. Nothing to do with racing lines. It seems the fans get to the point of OCD about this, while the drivers shrug and say "yeah, I should have left more room"