Schumi deliberately blocks Monaco quali

[Tp]

MS fans like you have only one thing in the mouth "he's 7 times WDC", so what matters for them is a number, and not the sad way it was achieved. I do not think MS is a bad driver, but I can't think of him as a true champion, because he allways won in the fastest car, with tyres and car designed for his sole purpose, and having team mates playing the bitch for him

WHAT!!! Ferrari were no-where before M.S arrived, okay there were other factors, but he surely was the main one. After securing the title twice for Bennetton, he found a challenge in making Ferrari World Champions again, which at the time was a highly risky move, given Ferrari's championship drought (the Italian giants had not won a title since 1979). So how can you say he had the best car?

And......well, I'm sure you know what happened next, 5 World Championships.

[RH1300S]

When using the word "Champion" in this context it does not mean someone who achieves much success. To behave like a champion is to act in a way becoming of the title.

Race fans tend to hold some drivers in higher regard than others because of their attitude on and off the track.

Gilles Villeneuve
Stirling Moss
Fangio
Nuvolari
Jim Clark
Senna

In no particular order and not a comprehensive list (and notice, not all have won the title).

These are men that a huge number of F1 fans would probably rate as greater figures in the sport.

The great shame is that MS has so much going for him, if he had (perhaps) lost out on the title a couple of times, but kept his sheet clean he would probably be considered a greater champion with fewer titles under his belt. Yes, he was instrumental in turning Ferrari around (although you might suggest that Todt should get the credit for having the fore-sight to bring Schuey, Brawn & Bryne all in one go - JUST ONE of that trio would not have been enough).

[Scuderia_Russ]

Why isn't their so much uproar about the constant cheating that goes on in Nascar West?. I always read the stories in the motorsport press over here but I don't know much about the series.

[f1.redbaron]

When using the word "Champion" in this context it does not mean someone who achieves much success. To behave like a champion is to act in a way becoming of the title.

Race fans tend to hold some drivers in higher regard than others because of their attitude on and off the track.

Gilles Villeneuve
Stirling Moss
Fangio
Nuvolari
Jim Clark
Senna

In no particular order and not a comprehensive list (and notice, not all have won the title).

These are men that a huge number of F1 fans would probably rate as greater figures in the sport.

The great shame is that MS has so much going for him, if he had (perhaps) lost out on the title a couple of times, but kept his sheet clean he would probably be considered a greater champion with fewer titles under his belt. Yes, he was instrumental in turning Ferrari around (although you might suggest that Todt should get the credit for having the fore-sight to bring Schuey, Brawn & Bryne all in one go - JUST ONE of that trio would not have been enough).

Since you mentioned Fangio (and I'm not questioning his behaviour), I've got a question that I would like all MS/Ferrari haters to answer.

(my dates might be off somewhat) In 1956 at Monza, on his way to win his fourth title, he damaged his car and had no way of resuming the race, thus no chances of winning the championship. His team-mate pitted, got out of the car, and let Fangio take over, eventually winning the race and the championship. While that has to be one of the most selfless acts ever, I was wondering what would've happened if that ever happened to MS? What would the MS-haters say if, say, Massa got out of his car (yes, I know the rules don't allow that, but this is make-believe) and gave it to MS? I've gotta a feeling that there would've been riots all over Europe.

[West]

Why isn't their so much uproar about the constant cheating that goes on in Nascar West?. I always read the stories in the motorsport press over here but I don't know much about the series.

Yeah there's sh*t like bump drafting or whatever it's called, or when people run each other into the walls. I personally don't think it's racing, but the thing is the audience loves it AFAIK, and the fines are usually just equivalent to slaps on the wrists. I never hear of endangering one's life, which is kinda odd.

I just hear of stories of higher ups being caught cheating and then getting suspended but I don't really keep up with NASCAR. All the pushing and shoving that happens, I bet NASCAR doesn't condone it, but it drives the ratings up, so they don't really do anything. After all, it's broadcasted on FOX

[FLC]

Thats exactly why all these comaprisons between the old times and modern times of F1 are doomed to fail.

I also think that Ferrari never built a superior car for MS. They just built a superior car. I believe Irvine, and Barichello, even Salo and Massa for sure were able to adopt the car to their driving style all they want and were given full means to do so. wasnt Irivine fighting for the championship with "MS's car" in 99'? Does anybody think that Renault, for that matter, built the R-26 for Alonso and that's why Fisichella isnt doing so well? Cant agree on that, just another legend.

[Scuderia_Russ]

When using the word "Champion" in this context it does not mean someone who achieves much success. To behave like a champion is to act in a way becoming of the title.

Race fans tend to hold some drivers in higher regard than others because of their attitude on and off the track.

Gilles Villeneuve
Stirling Moss
Fangio
Nuvolari
Jim Clark
Senna

In no particular order and not a comprehensive list (and notice, not all have won the title).

These are men that a huge number of F1 fans would probably rate as greater figures in the sport.

The great shame is that MS has so much going for him, if he had (perhaps) lost out on the title a couple of times, but kept his sheet clean he would probably be considered a greater champion with fewer titles under his belt. Yes, he was instrumental in turning Ferrari around (although you might suggest that Todt should get the credit for having the fore-sight to bring Schuey, Brawn & Bryne all in one go - JUST ONE of that trio would not have been enough).

Since you mentioned Fangio (and I'm not questioning his behaviour), I've got a question that I would like all MS/Ferrari haters to answer.

(my dates might be off somewhat) In 1956 at Monza, on his way to win his fourth title, he damaged his car and had no way of resuming the race, thus no chances of winning the championship. His team-mate pitted, got out of the car, and let Fangio take over, eventually winning the race and the championship. While that has to be one of the most selfless acts ever, I was wondering what would've happened if that ever happened to MS? What would the MS-haters say if, say, Massa got out of his car (yes, I know the rules don't allow that, but this is make-believe) and gave it to MS? I've gotta a feeling that there would've been riots all over Europe.

I think it was Phil Hill that gave up his car.

[West]

Alonso or MS in a Honda, Toyota or a lesser team would show the true extent of their capabilities.

[f1.redbaron]

Peter Collins...and I was wrong. Fangio didn't win - he got the podium, but that is all he needed to win the championship.

[[EDF]Fx]

How can you say that Senna is a champion and Schumacher not when Senna A: Was as ruthless as any Formula driver has ever been. B: Behaved like a complete idiot at times.

The other drivers in RH1300S´s list I dont know much about apart from what I have learned from various videos and articles but I have had the fortune to follow Formula 1 when Senna drove and Senna was really really good but he sure as hell wasnt a saint either.

I just like know how you can consider Sennas a good sportman, a champion when Senna made things like running into Prost at high speed deliberately or punching Irvine in the face. Until you have a good explanation why Sennas actions were good and Schumachers evil you are nothing but an huge hypocrite!

/ Fx

[Tom]

[EDF]Fx, the same point I was going to make, but I would have suger coated it.

Senna to me (IMO) was never a true champion because he did (IMO) cheat to achieve these goals and (IMO) put other drivers lives at risk. MS has done the same repeatedly. I notice however Alain Prost was not on the list and I'll admit he had a moment with Senna, which I believe was a racing incident, but he is one of my personnal favorite driver despite never seeing him race.

Collins willingly gave up the car to Fangio saying he didn't think he could handle the stress of being WC and his day would come. It never did, he died 2 years later!

[RH1300S]

First - I'm not a hypocrite! Let's not make this personal. And be careful with the accuracy of your words - that does not make me a hypocrite, at best a poor judge - that's all

Senna - was a deliberate and maybe hard choice. Yes, he probably tipped the F1 world over the edge (or maybe theree were earlier ones).

Ruthless (and too much so), but somehow charismatic and, it's hard to explain, never as childish as some of Michael's worst moments. At his best Senna was spookily good.........the demon amongst champions.

I am quite prepared to stand up for Michael when he is at his best.

I remember watching him at a sportscar race at Silverstone (I was standing at Club) - in that race there was one man who was inch perfect and scary fast every single lap he was in the car....................a few races later he stunned the world at Spa in a Jordan - If you like I can say I "saw" him before the rest of the world marked him as a star

Doesn't change my opinion of Monaco.........

[dumrick]

How can you say that Senna is a champion and Schumacher not when Senna A: Was as ruthless as any Formula driver has ever been. B: Behaved like a complete idiot at times.

That's right. Senna had everything but a good curriculum in being a good sportsman. Not only because of the cases with Prost, I remember him just bumping Naninni out of the track in the 63th lap of the Hungarian GP in 1990 for 2nd place. That was just of one of the examples I remember being schocked with back then.

Yes, that attitude of Collins is something of a legend builder, although he never won the championship. If he hadn't given the car to Fangio, he would have been world champion... but that made him more of a champion that MS will ever be...

[Scuderia_Russ]

He also forced Schumacher into a spin in his early days with Benetton... top bloke though apparently.

[West]

Well, there's only one real Senna fan AFAIK on this forum. But everybody else agrees that Senna did have a ruthless streak.

Reminds me of a GT3 race against my friend; I didn't give him any space and we were neck and neck to the finish. I didn't give him any room and he ran into the pit wall... but it's a video game not real life.