Schumi deliberately blocks Monaco quali

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manchild
manchild
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First of all.. some of the posters are mixing Nannini and Schuey accident so it appears there were two accidents in Hungaroring. It was only one accident with Benetton car and just racing accident for sure not deciding title.
Senna had everything but a good curriculum in being a good sportsman
Is that based on his life risking actions to help Comas and Zanardi? Or is it based on sneaking into hospital to visit Barchello? Perhaps you're referring to that he had never publicly spoken about giving money to charity like MS did because he REALLY wanted to give without making show out of it?. So, "bad sportsman Senna" risked his life several times to save life of his fellow drivers and gave millions away without anyone ever knowing until he died and his finances came to daylight.
[EDF]Fx wrote:Senna... Behaved like a complete idiot at times
Your manners follow you in every post. Choice of words really suits to everything MS represents. Now I know why you are his fan.

===========================

Bottom line... for the zillionth time MS fans are trying to clear dirt from Schuey's name by bringing Senna into discussion. I said it before and I'll repeat - that is pathetic.

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Ciro Pabón
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manchild wrote:Bottom line... for the zillionth time MS fans are trying to clear dirt from Schuey's name by bringing Senna into discussion. I said it before and I'll repeat - that is pathetic.
At least this time it took 19 pages to reach Senna... :wink:

I wonder if this thread is ever going to end. I was afraid of being the last to post something... but now I am not.

To be positive, I'd like to remember some moments of sportmanship in this glorious sport:

* "Just for your own information and to get it straight from the horse's mouth, I can assure you that Juan is definitely more rapid than yours truly in Grand Prix racing today." -- Stirling Moss, on a letter to newspapers about comments on him being equal to Fangio --

* When Roger Williamson crashed at the 1973 Dutch GP David Purley made frantic efforts to save him with no help from marshalls or anyone else. Purley was awarded the George Medal for his bravery.

* Harald Ertl, Brett Lunger, Guy Edwards and Arturo Merzario went to Lauda's aid on 1976 Nürburgring.

* David Coulthard let Mika Hakkinen pass to win, Australia 1998, because of a gentleman agreement and because Hakkinen went an extra time through the pits because of a miscommunication.

* Stirling Moss at Portugal, 1958, testifying in favor of Hawthorne, who won the championship by a point over Moss.

* Mike Hailwood wading into the flames to rescue Clay Regazzoni at Kyalami in 1973.

* Tiny Lund literally holding up a burning car (a Maserati coupe) so several others could crawl in and pull Marvin Panch from the wreckage, done at Daytona during the 1963 Speedweeks.

I think the more money, the less sportmanship.

You know my motto: give numbers instead of opinions. I would like to give this table, taken from FORIX (thanks to Williams at Atlas F1):

Image
Ciro

saam
saam
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To clear some things up in here to people who dont know me, here is goes...

I am a MS fan due to the style of driving that i have seen from him, not only in the BEST cars as some put it, but in quite odinary cars. I cant beleive that MS has to still prove to people that he is a worthy champion, but then again there is nothing he can do to convince these kind of opinions of him due to the nature of people.

I dont come on here and bag about other drivers like MS haters seem to love to do nor do i come here to bag other contructors either. Im a F1 fan that speaks up when ignorant people put no credit where its due and form and opinion of a driver by his mistakes or charactor outside F1.
Always FERRARI


Everyones an F1 expert........

dumrick
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manchild wrote:Bottom line... for the zillionth time MS fans are trying to clear dirt from Schuey's name by bringing Senna into discussion. I said it before and I'll repeat - that is pathetic.
I've been talking about Senna and it's ridiculous that you refer this way about bringing Senna to the subject.
Senna was one of the first to bring the "bully disease" to F1 and marked the end of the gentlemanship era, by being openly dangerous on track and playing dirty.
I was shocked with so many moves by Senna, that showed a deep disrespect by his fellow drivers and their safety.

The reasons he did it, we know that it was because he was a religious lunatic, that thought that God was in his side and that he did what was requested by God. That is the same motivation that made him run to join the rescue teams a few times, even if in those years it wasn't needed anymore the way it was back in the days of Lauda's accident, for example.

To make a long story short, Schumi is in so many ways the successor of Senna, and in disrespect for other drivers and being dangerous on track he sure is THE ONE. I believe you are too young to really know how it was when Senna raced, therefore I understand that you have only been fed with the pretty stories that remained after he died and therefore, you have been brainwashed. Because it is impossible to criticize Schumacher for his behaviour on track and be a Senna fan, at the same time... :roll:
Last edited by dumrick on 05 Jun 2006, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.

Hudsonhawk.
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Manchild,

I will definately discuss this with you next year.....

i just hope Mclaren build him a similar lemon to this years.....It will be a 50/50 bet if you ask me!! I would love to see Rappingmen stay because this would certainly be the best way to compare A-loaf-so's ability. It was always said that Rappingmen and Jew-won Mount-toys was the best combination.....i think the speel was "fire and ice"...well someone pee on that fire and someone burnt their ar$e, because its producted nadda....niente....zip.....Such great driversss....left holding their d*cks in their hands because of the cards they were dealt.

I believe A-loaf-so will drown in his money.....just my prediction.....but i will be glad to be the first to bring this discussion up next year regardless of Alonso's WC standing.

Peace brother.

RH1300S
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Hmmmmm...........let's try and wrap this up. Sorry I mentioned Senna, I knew it would bring trouble, just felt I had to throw it into the mix.

Some of us will never agree about what may or may not have been behind the Monaco incident.

Michael Schumacher (I think rightly) attracts and awful lot of negative comment and it's not all down to envy.

As a balancer; so many people who know Michael well (let's face it all/most of us don't) - will say that he is a warm and caring person.

Perhaps we should look at him as basically a good human, with a genius for maximising his race winning chances, but troubled by demons that surface in moments of stress.

Any chance we can let the vitriol die down a bit; normally this forum is an interesting and lively place and this thread is beginning to get ugly.

I really want to post something about the differences between Michael & Senna, but I will wait for a calmer moment :wink: I have ideas about this that might clarify why they don't seem to be seen as equal in the eyes of many fans (just need to check my rose tint spectacles are clean first).

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NickT
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Just read this and it makes quite interesting reading :wink:
Rear view mirror to 1997

In the light of Michael Schumacher's recent activities in Monaco, it is perhaps worth noting some of the things that were said in 1997 after the incident at Jerez de la Frontera when Schumacher tried to drive Jacques Villeneuve off the road and was docked all his points from that year's World Championship.

"I have to admit that I did make a mistake," said Michael. "I did what I did - and I have to accept the penalty. It happened to me, which I didn't want to admit at the time. But now I understand what I did. The most important thing for me is to learn from this, to look forward into the future."

At the same event FIA President Max Mosley spoke Schumacher's punishment being a deterrent.

"It sends a message to all drivers at all levels of the sport that if you do something you shouldn't do when a championship is at issue, you will be excluded from that championship," he said. " It means you will not be permitted to gain anything by engaging in an illegitimate act. It is absolutely no good imposing a penalty that isn't a deterrent. We had to find something that would be a clear deterrent, not just in F1 but also all the way through the sport, by demonstrating that we could, and would, take away a championship position altogether. Even if he had then ended up with more points, he would not have won the championship, it would have gone to Villeneuve, because he did something he should not have done."

In the light of these remarks, it is fair to say that Michael got off lightly at Monaco.
NickT

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NickT
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Sorry guys to add even more fuel to this fire, but this sums up what happened quite concisely:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns16894.html
NickT

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Ciro Pabón
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RH1300S wrote:Perhaps we should look at him as basically a good human...
* Where are the heroes?

Racing, he is not. Neither Senna. Both are totally crazy. If one of my sons behaved like them I would be confused by his "fear of losing". They are a little like "Hudsonhag" posts, that mock everybody around: they are delighted by the discovery that you can behave rudely and go unpunished.... it happens to anybody sometimes and to somebody anytime. The question is if Schumacher belongs to the first category or to the second :wink:

Actually, I think that "Alonso-mania" can be explained easily: there is a third category. Most of F1 fans are looking around the pitlane looking for some hero that does not behave like most of us... It seems to me that people is desperate for somebody to win and in style: they cherish every gesture of Alonso that somehow implies he is a "nice boy" and a champion..

There is a subtle difference here: you say he is a "good human", I say "we are all humans". And, of course, most of us are less good than we wish and less evil than we fear.

* The pilots as victims

Well, if you cannot make heroes of your fellow human beings, you try to make victimized heroes of them. At least this is the theory... Let's explore a little this side of the sport.

The table I gave on year vs accidents shows that competence, difficulty of the sport and character corruption have increased.

I guess it is the money. Look, this is a "winner take it all" sport. No salary caps, no regulations on incentives, heavy betting (ehem... ). Basically, if the pilot can incense enough fans, he get all the money, because he is in a unique position to negotiate with the team. This only happens to a dozen guys, out of 2 or 3 million around the world that have to pay to drive.

On the other side, all the pilots are scared to death because they can be easily replaced with a 16 years old boy from Exterior Borzovia at any time. There are few regulations to "level the field". In one of the most dangerous sports in the world pilots have no safety net and I guess all their families live in fear. They can spend millions to get a drive and then patted in the back in the blink of an eye. Let's face it: an aspiring pilot has the same chances of success that an ancient Rome gladiator had, if not less.

I do not know if nowadays exists just one pilot with a chance to be brilliant and at the same time make an statement about ethical stature (I say ethical instead of moral on purpose). You do not have to be the most technical pilot to do this.

And this, RH1300S explains to me why Schumacher got all this flak from the entire pit. Forget about the fans, it seems a moment of the sport when most pilots are tired of everything and they are dumping it all on Schumacher, as Schuey on them.

* Redemption

You know, there is a tradition out there. Pilots cut and bump into each other, but they do not do it without limits. Every time you take those limits a little further, the "fear level" increases (and some of the howling of the fans... :wink: ).

If pilots start to cheat each other openly, as teams sometimes do with them, then everything is lost and they know it. They are demanding Schumacher to say that he did it and he is sorry or that he did not do it and he is sorry, whatever, but looking them straight in the face. I am pretty sure they are going to have this conversation soon, behind closed doors.

I would be astonished by Schumi accepting his "guilt" in any of these senses, as a mistake or a wrongdoing: a gesture like this would go into history. But I guess that for most pilots would be only another publicity stunt.

Lately, heros are in demand, if you believe to Campbell.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 05 Jun 2006, 16:10, edited 2 times in total.
Ciro

dumrick
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As always, a great post, Ciro.
Ciro Pabón wrote:You know, there is a tradition out there. Pilots cut and bump into each other, but they do not do it without limits. Every time you take those limits a little further, the "fear level" increases (and some of the howling of the fans... :wink: ).
That was my point concerning the "bullying". Before the 70's there would be no bullies in F1 because it was dangerous and the drivers were actually afraid of dying (they saw their mates perish often) and anyone who would behave like Senna or Schumacher would be discriminated.

In the 80's started rising a feeling that F1 wasn't that dangerous and death stopped being that present in people's minds. Even the death of De Angelis was away of the public eye and the finger was pointed at the lack of marshalls in testing. This feeling allowed for a driver like Senna to behave in a manner it would be severily criticized some years before.

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Ciro Pabón
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dumrick wrote:In the 80's started rising a feeling that F1 wasn't that dangerous and death stopped being that present in people's minds. Even the death of De Angelis was away of the public eye and the finger was pointed at the lack of marshalls in testing. This feeling allowed for a driver like Senna to behave in a manner it would be severily criticized some years before.
Yes. I totally agree. Now that you mention it, this explains why I have been waiting for a "big one" (big accident) for many years now (out of reflex, I guess) and, hey, it has not happened.
Ciro

manchild
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Fresh news :mrgreen:
pitpass wrote:Schumacher to face his peers

Michael Schumacher might be hoping to leave the Rascasse incident behind him, but fellow drivers, not to mention certain sections of the media, have other ideas.

The German driver has been summoned to attend a special meeting of the Grand Prix Drivers' Association (GPDA) at Silverstone this weekend, when he will be asked to explain his version of events to his racing colleagues.

Following the incident, in the final minute of qualifying at Monaco, when the seven-time World Champion was subsequently found guilty of deliberately stopping his car on track in an effort to hamper his rivals' qualifying laps, many F1 people were highly critical of the German, not least fellow drivers.

In the past week, several drivers have been exceedingly vocal in their criticism of the German, and considering that one of the main aims of the GPDA is to improve driver safety, Schumacher is being called to explain his actions. Of course, being racing drivers, the members of the GPDA are going to have far better insight as to what really happened than anyone else.

Although the GPDA cannot sanction any form of punishment, it could ask Schumacher to stand down as president, or possibly expel him, which would be highly embarrassing for the German, since it would demonstrate that his on-track colleagues no longer have faith in him.

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NickT
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Ciro Pabón wrote:
dumrick wrote:In the 80's started rising a feeling that F1 wasn't that dangerous and death stopped being that present in people's minds. Even the death of De Angelis was away of the public eye and the finger was pointed at the lack of marshalls in testing. This feeling allowed for a driver like Senna to behave in a manner it would be severily criticized some years before.
Yes. I totally agree. Now that you mention it, this explains why I have been waiting for a "big one" (big accident) for many years now (out of reflex, I guess) and, hey, it has not happened.
Excellent guys, I couldn't have put it any better.

and Manchild thanks for the update, that is going to be one very interesting meeting :twisted:
NickT

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Scuderia_Russ
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manchild wrote:First of all.. some of the posters are mixing Nannini and Schuey accident so it appears there were two accidents in Hungaroring. It was only one accident with Benetton car and just racing accident for sure not deciding title.
Senna had everything but a good curriculum in being a good sportsman
Is that based on his life risking actions to help Comas and Zanardi? Or is it based on sneaking into hospital to visit Barchello? Perhaps you're referring to that he had never publicly spoken about giving money to charity like MS did because he REALLY wanted to give without making show out of it?. So, "bad sportsman Senna" risked his life several times to save life of his fellow drivers and gave millions away without anyone ever knowing until he died and his finances came to daylight.
So basically Manchild what you are saying is that if I went out and beat up old ladies and stole their pension, it would be okay if I volunteered down at the old folks home every so often?
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

[EDF]Fx
[EDF]Fx
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And all the good things in life that Schumacher does does not count ? whereas Senna´s does. In Sweden thats called being hypocritical. Also if you punch somebody in the face here in Sweden you usually end up up being refered to as an idiot and since I dont usually punch people in the face when they dont agree with me at least I have better manners than Senna.

Something that is really pathetic is that you(Manchild) actually believe that fans of Schumacher actually can use Senna´s name to clean Schumachers shirt. Both Senna and Schumacher has made positive and negative contributions to their respective legacy that cannot be washed away no matter what detergent or name you use.

But Manchild when you have a good explanation for why running Prost off the track is a move/action/gesture of a true sportsman/champion while running into Villeneuve is a bad one. Until then you can stop writing your because its just a load of BS.

/ Fx