Ferrari F2012

[FakeAlonso]

I'm thinking the writer read something xtraordinary on the Internet and just ran with it.

He maybe was reading the Ferrari thread here.

[bhall]

(That's what I was implying.)

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Can a suspension guy answer what is the proper name of where the wishbones attach to the chassis? Not a big suspension guy..

Edit: OOO wait until Xpensive see's the AutoSprint article I post in a minute... LOL Even though they just speculate. he'll be happy.

[bettonracing]

Can a suspension guy answer what is the proper name of where the wishbones attach to the chassis? Not a big suspension guy..

Inboard suspension pickups.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Ok here is the article from AutoSprint about the Ferrari F2012 front pull rod suspension. Honestly it's much like the free article posted on their site this morning but in the interest of fairness & being objective, I post it here to be discussed. Even if Xpensive will try and tell me he told me so. But obviously it's speculation and we'll find out in Spain or during the Mugello tests which come first.

AutoSprint Ferrari F2012 Front Pull-Rod Suspension Analysis:

Does the front pull-rod suspension flex the body?

In Ferrari all of the team knows that they have to do lots of work to fight for the first positions. At this moment the F2012 has a little window where it's competitive.
We all know what are the problems: no traction in slow corners and low top speed. But the question is: why?
Lots of "trusted" rumors (from engineers that work in other team) say that the origin of the problem is the front pull-rod suspension which, according to the team, doens't create any troubles.
Objectively the geometry of the suspension is a bit strange: chassis high with an horizontal rod... How can it work fine? So, according to these "experts", the big forces generated during braking or acceleration can flex the chassis where there are the attachments(wishbones) of the suspension attach to the chassis.
But a chassis has to be light and RIGID.
This would be an inexpicable mistake: this is studied in the first year of University. It's impossible that in Ferrari the engineers haven't considered the problem of this kind of geometry which also makes the setup changes more difficult.
The pull-rod generates less drag but the F2012 hasn't a great top speed so what do they have to do?
Ferrari has denied that they are going to reintroduce push rod suspension on the front but it is quite certainly that the only change of the exhausts system won't be enough to have the same performance of the other teams. But maybe in this way they could find the balance between the rear and the front.

Large high res image of the article--> http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4859 ... df2012.png

Thanks to F1 Technical member Italian for help with the translation.

Also of note member Scarbs has said he believes the front pull rod is fine and is not the cause of the F2012's problems.




@bettonracing thanks!!


**edit** Just to emphasize a point in that article, the rival engineers Autosprint spoke to describe the decision to use a front pullrod as 'almost unexplainable' and the stuff of 'first year engineering'.

[wesley123]

Personally I think Scarbs is right. The new front wing already gives good signs for that.

Normally, more wings means more downforce, until a certain point when the wings chord becomes too short. A 5 plane wing on the other hand can be made less sensitive due to the more slots, thus 'more air under the wing' reducing the chance of the wing stalling. Obviously this is taken a bit too easily, but this already gives decent signs of Ferrari's problem being aerodynamics, two years in a row

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Here is a comparison of the old & new FW




rough translation:

And come the 'wing test
The F2012 was used and a new wing, which had been proven in testing in Barcelona. In the small circle is known for the different performance of nolder(See Below) highlighted in yellow in the big picture, while the largest circle compares the different channels of the outer contours

**Nolder: Small aerodynamic appendix in the shape of an inverted L positioned generally on the edge of the rear wing. Its function is to increase downforce at low speed.**

[elFranZ]

Ok here is the article from AutoSprint about the Ferrari F2012 front pull rod suspension. Honestly it's much like the free article posted on their site this morning but in the interest of fairness & being objective, I post it here to be discussed. Even if Xpensive will try and tell me he told me so. But obviously it's speculation and we'll find out in Spain or during the Mugello tests which come first.

AutoSprint Ferrari F2012 Front Pull-Rod Suspension Analysis:

Does the front pull-rod suspension flex the body?

In Ferrari all of the team knows that they have to do lots of work to fight for the first positions. At this moment the F2012 has a little window where it's competitive.
We all know what are the problems: no traction in slow corners and low top speed. But the question is: why?
Lots of "trusted" rumors (from engineers that work in other team) say that the origin of the problem is the front pull-rod suspension which, according to the team, doens't create any troubles.
Objectively the geometry of the suspension is a bit strange: chassis high with an horizontal rod... How can it work fine? So, according to these "experts", the big forces generated during braking or acceleration can flex the chassis where there are the attachments(wishbones) of the suspension attach to the chassis.
But a chassis has to be light and RIGID.
This would be an inexpicable mistake: this is studied in the first year of University. It's impossible that in Ferrari the engineers haven't considered the problem of this kind of geometry which also makes the setup changes more difficult.
The pull-rod generates less drag but the F2012 hasn't a great top speed so what do they have to do?
Ferrari has denied that they are going to reintroduce push rod suspension on the front but it is quite certainly that the only change of the exhausts system won't be enough to have the same performance of the other teams. But maybe in this way they could find the balance between the rear and the front.

Large high res image of the article--> http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4859 ... df2012.png

Thanks to F1 Technical member Italian for help with the translation.

Also of note member Scarbs has said he believes the front pull rod is fine and is not the cause of the F2012's problems.




@bettonracing thanks!!

Hope you don't mine if i translate the last sentence:
"LuckIly Ferrari, human side, is far way superior to Ferrari, technical side"
This should sum up all the article. I repeat, these are not rumors nor speculations, it's just Italian trash.

[timbo]

Can a suspension guy answer what is the proper name of where the wishbones attach to the chassis? Not a big suspension guy..

Inboard suspension pickups.

In fact the A-arms are connected to the chassis via so called "flextures" which are actually solid titanium pieces.

[hardingfv32]

In fact the A-arms are connected to the chassis via so called "flextures" which are actually solid titanium pieces.

I remember seeing this a while back and thinking it was unusual:



Also do you think the 'flextures' in the rear are all carbon fiber at this time? Many look like that from the outside. The fronts have been all carbon fiber for years.

Brian

[munudeges]

Lots of "trusted" rumors (from engineers that work in other team) say that the origin of the problem is the front pull-rod suspension which, according to the team, doens't create any troubles.

Well, it's no surprise to me that they might well admit something privately that they don't want to publicly. Time will tell on that point. I would imagine that engineers in other teams will be baffled.

Objectively the geometry of the suspension is a bit strange: chassis high with an horizontal rod... How can it work fine?

Yep, that's exactly what a lot of people have been wondering.

So, according to these "experts", the big forces generated during braking or acceleration can flex the chassis where there are the attachments(wishbones) of the suspension attach to the chassis.

Well, to my mind they are basically saying that there are vastly increased forces involved in this suspension geometry and they are having a very strange effect, which we've kind of suspected. I know lots of people have been quick to point out that this geometry presents no problem but I just don't see it. A horizontal pull-rod like that is going to put a lot of stress on itself and probably the wishbones as it struggles to get the required movement. On a very basic level I don't see many strong, rigid and compliant triangular structures in this layout.

This would be an inexpicable mistake: this is studied in the first year of University. It's impossible that in Ferrari the engineers haven't considered the problem of this kind of geometry which also makes the setup changes more difficult.

That's pretty strong criticism, but there must have been some central reason why they came up with this and I would dearly like to know what it might have been.

Ferrari has denied that they are going to reintroduce push rod suspension on the front but it is quite certainly that the only change of the exhausts system won't be enough to have the same performance of the other teams.

I think it's a given it will happen sooner rather than later. More than anything else if Ferrari are to develop then they need to move on from a known point with something they are familiar with. What they have is a journey into the unknown for seemingly little to no benefit. You can't do a lot aerodynamically if the mechanicals are a (possible) moving target.

[hardingfv32]

Quoting Craig Scarborough..... "Rubbish"

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Finite Element Analysis and Design pretty much tell you what is required with this design?

Brian

[munudeges]

Ultimately, we'll know if and when they change it.

[604gtir]

My opinion is that its all related to lack of rear downforce simply that cascades into problems everywhere

1. poor diffuser sealing
2. can't run large rake
3. leads to low rear ride height stiff rear suspension (hence low fuel pace is off)
4. low downforce levels in rear lead to reduced angles of attack on front wing, so they have less front df to maintain 'balance'
5. leading to the twitchy handling understeer, then oversteer issues
6. leads to increased tire wear
... and so on


in my opinion, it just compounds due to the lack of downforce in the rear
not so much the front pull rod

but thats just me

[raymondu999]

I can see why a leaky diffuser would rob rear df, but why would the lack of rear df LEAD to lack of sealing?