Carbon Fibre pushrod, a closer look

[riff_raff]

I don't think welded 4130 steel tubes, 25 CrMo 4 in my book, for suspension parts have been seen in F1 since the 70s, why I believe that machined Alu or Ti was the way to go before the carbon age. I can remember Gordon Murray already in the seventies xpressing his dislike for all sorts of welded components and John Barnard would probably have had a heart failure at the proposition.

TIG welded CrMo alloy steel was used for A-arms, pushrods/pullrods, tie rods, and uprights in F1 up to the early 90's. CrMo is still used in Indy car suspensions per regulations. I believe Indy car requires steel suspension parts because the steel suspension parts tend to have a more benign structural failure mode than composite (bending rather than shattering) during an impact with an oval track wall.

The welded CrMo steel F1 uprights were beautiful examples of the race fabricator's hand craftsmanship. Except for headers and heat exchangers, we don't see too much of it on the cars anymore. But I will have to admit that the current generation 5-axis CNC machined monolithic aluminum uprights are also quite beautiful.

[marcush.]

the second is wire eroded non fabricated -Renault rear upright...

[xpensive]

...
TIG welded CrMo alloy steel was used for A-arms, pushrods/pullrods, tie rods, and uprights in F1 up to the early 90's. CrMo is still used in Indy car suspensions per regulations. I believe Indy car requires steel suspension parts because the steel suspension parts tend to have a more benign structural failure mode than composite (bending rather than shattering) during an impact with an oval track wall.
...

In the case of welded steel suspension components in the 80s, I don't think those were in the classic "tube" sense, rather folded/welded from sheet metal? As for Indy Car, I can imagine it's about cost, everybody has the same chassis anyway, no?

Back to the pushrod structure, how about beginning with an xtruded, hollow and aerodynamic Alu-profile?

[humble sabot]

That makes lots more sense for the pushrod, less of an option for the rest. Since you're extruding you won't have the right surface for your joints so ti inserts would seem to make sense.


to prove my point though
I love gurneyflap!
FW14B

Jordan 191, which, interestingly enough used a carbon pushrod and steel A-arms.


so '92 and '91 respectively. That would be aeroplane tubing, not folded like the earlier experiments in the '70s.
Actually I can't seem to find one in a similar style in Alu. Only one I found in alu at all in any style was this BRM P153 from 1970, and it looks pretty thick wall.

[Richard]

the second is wire eroded non fabricated -Renault rear upright...

Could you explain wire eroded, I'm not sure what that means.

[xpensive]

That's EDM, Electrical Discharge Machining.

[flyboy2160]

...and it's very slow and very expensive compared to conventional machining, so it's typically used in cases where conventional machining isn't possible.

for instance, the dies for making synthetic fabric thread that have long tiny holes through very hard steels are usually done by wire edm. you just couldn't drill such long small holes.

[DaveW]

...and it's very slow and very expensive compared to conventional machining, so it's typically used in cases where conventional machining isn't possible.

for instance, the dies for making synthetic fabric thread that have long tiny holes through very hard steels are usually done by wire edm. you just couldn't drill such long small holes.

All true. I would add that it is certainly the best (perhaps the only) way of manufacturing Marcush's upright out of Ti.

the second is wire eroded non fabricated -Renault rear upright...

[hardingfv32]

All true. I would add that it is certainly the best (perhaps the only) way of manufacturing Marcush's upright out of Ti.

For my knowledge... Why would you say that EDM is probably required?

Brian

[flyboy2160]

...
All true. I would add that it is certainly the best (perhaps the only) way of manufacturing Marcush's upright out of Ti.
...

dave, up until recently i would agree. but last year at work i looked into a 3D sintering machine whose manufacturer claimed, if i recall correctly, its sintered Ti pieces had NO material knockdown. i'm laid off and don't have my work files, but i'll see if i can dig up the reference because it's such an interesting technology.

[DaveW]

Why would you say that EDM is probably required?

I confess that it was largely historical folk law (based on fact) about the difficulties of machining & welding Ti alloys, coupled with rumors that John Barnard had, at one time, a successful business making Ti uprights for the F1 community.

Your question prompted me to investigate, to find that are now companies that do specialize in manufacturing Ti components. Here is a general link: http://rtiintl.com/machining-titanium.html.

Edit: Thanks Flyboy. You beat me to it...

[flynfrog]

...and it's very slow and very expensive compared to conventional machining, so it's typically used in cases where conventional machining isn't possible.

for instance, the dies for making synthetic fabric thread that have long tiny holes through very hard steels are usually done by wire edm. you just couldn't drill such long small holes.

just for a little more back ground. It is usually done under water sometimes oil. This limits the heat distortion. We used to grind our own electrodes out of graphite for turbine parts.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4FinKsD ... re=related[/youtube]

[flyboy2160]

i believe i looked at a german EOS machine. here is a reference.

i noticed a couple of refrences http://www.engineerlive.com/Design-Engi ... ing/20211/ to renault f1 uprights made by rapid casting from a 3D sintered mold. could that be the upright shown above?

a couple of companies also said that williams and red bull were using both plastic and metal sintered parts and molds. it wouldn't surprise me if most or even all of the f1 teams were already using this technology.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/04/additi ... laser.html

[marcush.]

...and it's very slow and very expensive compared to conventional machining, so it's typically used in cases where conventional machining isn't possible.

for instance, the dies for making synthetic fabric thread that have long tiny holes through very hard steels are usually done by wire edm. you just couldn't drill such long small holes.

I don´t see why you call this expensive.A HSM 5 or more axis mill will set you back a considerable sum as well but the precision achievable is nothing short of stunning .
Wire and sinking EDM machinery is a musthave in fabrication of top end metal/tool work and nothing to shy away from.

http://www.gfac.com/gfac/products/produ ... 66b9cb7731

Titanium powder for SLS process :
http://www.lasersintering.com/data/Ti-T ... 08_en_.pdf


the site is very informative about RP production capabilities and is giving a good overview about what´s available in the market..
http://www.lasersintering.com

[marcush.]

i believe i looked at a german EOS machine. here is a reference.

i noticed a couple of refrences http://www.engineerlive.com/Design-Engi ... ing/20211/ to renault f1 uprights made by rapid casting from a 3D sintered mold. could that be the upright shown above?

a couple of companies also said that williams and red bull were using both plastic and metal sintered parts and molds. it wouldn't surprise me if most or even all of the f1 teams were already using this technology.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/04/additi ... laser.html

of course it is

of course they use sintered parts and molds.common practise (I had prototype fan shrouds in SLS metalized -PVD coated to make them strong enough to survive in prototype cars back then )
check out the Windform website they do offer it as a customer service these days...
SlS (selective laser sintering )is possible with some metals so if you have the right machine (size) you can as well produce metal parts in all sizes and impossible contours..