2012 German GP - Hockenheim

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Hail22
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... ontroversy
A spokesperson for Red Bull refused to comment.

Oh my, Running away are we?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAp9sFVdERQ[/youtube]
Last edited by Hail22 on 22 Jul 2012, 11:30, edited 1 time in total.
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beelsebob
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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Hail22 wrote:http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... ontroversy
A spokesperson for Red Bull refused to comment.

Oh my, Running away are we?
That's a very bad sign for them – it implies that they know they were wrong and they have no excuse at all.

Aside – it's sad that not even the reporters, who are supposed to have an intimate knowledge of what's going on, can get the technical details right. The report there asserts that it provides more torque at mid rpms – it doesn't – it provides less.
Last edited by beelsebob on 22 Jul 2012, 11:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Teechnical
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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Noobs.
Adrian Newey should seriously know better.
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stefan_
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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Maybe they are waiting for the situation to clear up and therefore the spokesman to have a statement based on a clear position/decision.
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Teechnical
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101403

I quote Horner, "I'm not aware of any irregularities. The result was declared after qualifying."

This is like one of those moments when Snape should say, "Don't lie to me"
"We have a new toy" - Fernando Alonso.

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Hail22
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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Teechnical wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101403

I quote Horner, "I'm not aware of any irregularities. The result was declared after qualifying."

This is like one of those moments when Snape should say, "Don't lie to me"
I'm sure Hamilton would be saying something like this if he read that...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7iOGfUd ... re=related[/youtube]

There is still just over 2 hours to go, probably would expect a ruling an hour or so before the race starts.
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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German motorsport-total.com reports that other teams taped the Red Bull's engine sound during qualifying to have evidence, so this whole thing maybe started with an accusation of other team/s?
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myurr
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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Interesting. Certainly there have been many accusations over the course of this year of people hearing a blowing effect on the Red Bull cars, many of which coincided with their resurgence.

According to Andrew Benson, even if the FIA send the Bulls to the back of the grid, they can still race from their original positions pending appeal. I would guess that they'd then risk complete disqualification from the event if their appeal is unsuccessful.

Another interesting point that he makes is that it is unusual for the FIA to let their case leak in public like this, so it's likely that they feel they have a strong case against Red Bull.

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Hail22
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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Looks as if Both Bulls could start from the Pit Lane.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... tions.html
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jz11
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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when I read the rule 5.5.3. I think of the following things:
1) lets say that the Renault engines max torque X Nm at 15k rpm, and they ran this map in previous events, like the delegate said,
2) RB now mapped and limited the engine to Y Nm (Y<X) at the same 15k rpm.

when I apply the 5.5.3., I expect that at any given moment, when the pedal is pressed fully, the engine will produce X Nm in the 1st case, and Y Nm in the 2nd case, I see no correlation between the low-torque engine map and a possible breach of 5.5.3. whatsoever

edit:
Article 5.5.3 says that “The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed. The minimum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or lower than 0Nm.”
the difference between 1) and 2) is the mapping, but in both cases, the pedal, when fully pressed, it producing 100% of current maps max torque...
Last edited by jz11 on 22 Jul 2012, 12:33, edited 1 time in total.

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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Autosprint says on twitter that it's almost certain that Red Bull will be forced to start from the pitlane.
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Hail22
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 13623.html

Now the FoM has finally come out of their recluse to confirm the investigation :P

If Red Bull has found a way to circumvent the FIA imposed "controlled ecu unit" It would have to mean a disqualification, as well as a court hearing in front of the WMSC, as its not a mistake Red Bull is accused of "actively" trying to find a way around the FIA's rules as well as the Technical Work Group...
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

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myurr
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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jz11 wrote:when I read the rule 5.5.3. I think of the following things:
1) lets say that the Renault engines max torque X Nm at 15k rpm, and they ran this map in previous events, like the delegate said,
2) RB now mapped and limited the engine to Y Nm (Y<X) at the same 15k rpm.

when I apply the 5.5.3., I expect that at any given moment, when the pedal is pressed fully, the engine will produce X Nm in the 1st case, and Y Nm in the 2nd case, I see no correlation between the low-torque engine map and a possible breach of 5.5.3. whatsoever

edit:
Article 5.5.3 says that “The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed. The minimum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or lower than 0Nm.”
the difference between 1) and 2) is the mapping, but in both cases, the pedal, when fully pressed, it producing 100% of current maps max torque...
So you assume a few things about something you have very limited information on and then came to a ruling that holds more credibility than the FIA's engineer?

My understanding from reading a few sources, albeit likely based on very incomplete information, is that Red Bull were running a map that let them put the accelerator pedal to X% which gave Y% opening in the throttle which gave Z% of max torque, where Z was much less than expected for the given X and Y within a given RPM range. This was done for aerodynamic benefit to blow the throttles without the engine delivering more torque, which is in breach of the regulations. It's certainly not as straight forward as you have assumed.

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Hail22
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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New Updated Autosport article:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101407

I would have to agree with Myurr that the FIA would have a very fair idea about Red Bulls ECU/engine mapping from Melbourne to now.

I sense a very big stink is being kicked up in the Race directors room a long with Jean Todt.

Edit: Noticed RBR Twitter is awfully quiet, perhaps their legal officer has enforced a gag order?
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

Mr.S
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Re: 2012 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

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I am 100% certain this is what Mercedes complained about & lanched an official protest that RBR was playing with torque limits in a way which created off throttle blowing of the engine. I believe this happened in the pre-season tests.

RBR maybe stopped using it then & now have suddenly started using it. Haha, Downright pricks. First Holes in floor now this.