2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

[Nando]

I thought Lewis and Vettel first WDC was just as great. And they did it without much help from team and teammate

Hah, the RB6 was the single most dominant car there's been in F1 for near on a couple of decades. The fact that he only did it by the skin of his teeth shows how much he didn't do it without much help.

RB7 was more dominant.

More wins, more poles, more fastest laps. Biggest gaps in Qualifying to the competitors.

[Intego]

Can someone clarify something for me? There's something which IMO has been practiced (and for some time) different to how the regs are written.

Meet Article 43.2 of the sporting regs:

43.2 Should for any reason the end‐of‐race signal be given before the leading car completes the scheduled number of laps, or the prescribed time has been completed, the race will be deemed to have finished when the leading car last crossed the Line before the signal was given.
Should the end‐of‐ race signal be delayed for any reason, the race will be deemed to have finished when it should have finished.

Say you have the 71-lap Interlagos race. At the 2 hour mark, the race leader is in the middle of Sector 2, on his 69th lap. That means 68 complete laps.

Does the race end at the end of lap 68, or the end of lap 69?

Looking at precedent (the last two incidents have been Monaco 2008 and Singapore 2012) the race will end, at the end of that lap (ie in my example, it will end after 69 laps). But what about "the race will be deemed to have finished when the leading car last crossed the Line before the signal was given?"

Thanks.

Malaysia 2009: the race was stopped in lap 32 and not restarted later so the classification was the one how the contenders finished lap 31. This rule is only for not reaching the distance or time limit.
In your example the race ends after lap 69. It's like Qualifying; the time is over but the ongoing lap counts.

[beelsebob]

I thought Lewis and Vettel first WDC was just as great. And they did it without much help from team and teammate

Hah, the RB6 was the single most dominant car there's been in F1 for near on a couple of decades. The fact that he only did it by the skin of his teeth shows how much he didn't do it without much help.

RB7 was more dominant.

More wins, more poles, more fastest laps. Biggest gaps in Qualifying to the competitors.

More wins, more poles and more fastest laps do not translate into more dominant. The RB6 was a much less beatable car, it just happens that Vettel drove like a mong that year, and Hamilton drove like a mong in 2011.

[beelsebob]

Yes, but (in bold)

43.2 Should for any reason the end‐of‐race signal be given before the leading car completes the scheduled number of laps, or the prescribed time has been completed, the race will be deemed to have finished when the leading car last crossed the Line before the signal was given.
Should the end‐of‐ race signal be delayed for any reason, the race will be deemed to have finished when it should have finished.

It says Should for any reason [...] or the prescribed time has been completed. Wouldn't the 2 hour time limit fit as "prescribed time has been completed?

The point is that the prescribed time is "2 hours plus the amount of time it takes for the lead car to get to the start/finish line".

5.3 The distance of all races, from the start signal referred to in Article 38.9 to the chequered flag, shall be equal to the least number of complete laps which exceed a distance of 305 km (Monaco 260km). However, should two hours elapse before the scheduled race distance is completed, the leader will be shown the chequered flag when he crosses the control line (the Line) at the end of the lap during which the two hour period ended.

[raymondu999]

Aha. Okidoki. Thanks beelsebob.

RB7 was more dominant.

More wins, more poles, more fastest laps. Biggest gaps in Qualifying to the competitors.

More wins, more poles and more fastest laps do not translate into more dominant. The RB6 was a much less beatable car, it just happens that Vettel drove like a mong that year, and Hamilton drove like a mong in 2011.

I agree with beelsebob here. More wins/poles/flaps don't translate to more dominant. Statistically it does - but the RB6 was a car that would win the race as long as the drivers put in a clean weekend - which wasn't the case with the RB7.

[Intego]

I think, both RB6 and RB7 were dominant, just in 2010 (and also 2009) Vettel couldn't provide an error-free season, because he just was too young. But in 2010 he has learned a lot, maybe the most in his career. That's why Alonso's mind games and Samurai slogans don't reach his mind this year. I think, it may have worked in 2010.
Maybe we see Perez developing similar the next years.

EDIT: Ah, some thread-belonging words ...
Vettel will concentrate on his race and will be awaiting team announcements for the result.

[banibhusan]

Wasn't Brazil 2003 also ended in a similar way? Initially when the race was stopped everyone thought Kimi was the winner, but later the FIA clarified saying the position as per the previous lap would stand and Fisi was declared the winner.

@ Intego: It was not only vettel's fault. The RB6 was far less reliable that the RB7. They had way lot of failures with the RB6 than they had with the RB7. That also affects the statistics quite a lot. Otherwise with a reliable car and error less driving, the 2010 season could have been the same as in 2011.

[Intego]

Just re-read that. The computer marked the last lap standings and the race management also subtracted one lap. Hours later they realised, that the computer already had done that.

[CHT]

Wasn't Brazil 2003 also ended in a similar way? Initially when the race was stopped everyone thought Kimi was the winner, but later the FIA clarified saying the position as per the previous lap would stand and Fisi was declared the winner.

@ Intego: It was not only vettel's fault. The RB6 was far less reliable that the RB7. They had way lot of failures with the RB6 than they had with the RB7. That also affects the statistics quite a lot. Otherwise with a reliable car and error less driving, the 2010 season could have been the same as in 2011.

I remember 2010, Vettel also have to deal with wheel to wheel racing with team mate and he has never lead in the championship throughout the season. BUT against all odds, he came from behind to beat Webber and Alonso to win his first WDC. At this was when he was 23 years old.

[Nando]

More wins, more poles and more fastest laps do not translate into more dominant. The RB6 was a much less beatable car, it just happens that Vettel drove like a mong that year, and Hamilton drove like a mong in 2011.

It does actually. This is why the most dominant cars throughout history all have extremely impressive stats to back it up.

It is more dominant in every way you can imagine.

[raymondu999]

More wins, more poles and more fastest laps do not translate into more dominant. The RB6 was a much less beatable car, it just happens that Vettel drove like a mong that year, and Hamilton drove like a mong in 2011.

It does actually. This is why the most dominant cars throughout history all have extremely impressive stats to back it up.

It is more dominant in every way you can imagine.

Yes - but the gaps the RB7 achieved in qualifying were nowhere near the gaps achieved by the RB6.

[Nando]

but the RB6 was a car that would win the race as long as the drivers put in a clean weekend - which wasn't the case with the RB7.

It was beaten more times by it´s competitors on pure pace everything working fine then the RB7 ever did.
Frankly the only time i remember the RB7 looking weak was in Germany.

The RB6 was beaten by the Ferrari around Singapore, Monza, Germany and Hungary i believe.

Had to fight for most poles while the RB7 just came out with one minute left on the clock, banged in a lap 7 tenths clear of the opposition then ran away completely with the race.

Edit: scratch Hungary, Webber won that one.

[Nando]

More wins, more poles and more fastest laps do not translate into more dominant. The RB6 was a much less beatable car, it just happens that Vettel drove like a mong that year, and Hamilton drove like a mong in 2011.

It does actually. This is why the most dominant cars throughout history all have extremely impressive stats to back it up.

It is more dominant in every way you can imagine.

Yes - but the gaps the RB7 achieved in qualifying were nowhere near the gaps achieved by the RB6.

That´s what i´m saying....the RB7 compared to it´s rivals were way way way more dominant.
In every possible way.

edit: read that wrong. And you are wrong The RB7 put bigger gaps between the Red Bulls and the rest then the RB6 did.

1 tenth in Bahrain, 3-4 tenths in other places etc. RB7 would sometimes put almost a second on the other cars.

[CHT]

More wins, more poles and more fastest laps do not translate into more dominant. The RB6 was a much less beatable car, it just happens that Vettel drove like a mong that year, and Hamilton drove like a mong in 2011.

It does actually. This is why the most dominant cars throughout history all have extremely impressive stats to back it up.

It is more dominant in every way you can imagine.

I think in recent history I think the 2 most dominant cars is the RB7 and F2004

[raymondu999]

The RB7 put bigger gaps between the Red Bulls and the rest then the RB6 did.

Are you sure you got the cars the right way around? The RB7 was more consistently on pole - but by smaller gaps, except for a couple of exceptions. The RB6 produced some of the biggest gaps in qualifying we've seen in a long time. 9 tenths in Silverstone, 8 tenths in Barcelona, 1.2 seconds in Hungary, etc.

RB7 would sometimes put almost a second on the other cars.

And the RB6 sometimes put MORE than a second.

It was beaten more times by it´s competitors on pure pace everything working fine then the RB7 ever did

On pace? Name one race.

Here's the list of races the RB6 didn't win:
Bahrain - reliability
Australia - reliability
China - bad strategy
Turkey - collision
Canada - reliability
Germany - duff start
Spa - duff start, drivers getting tangled
Monza - I'll give you that one on pace
Singapore - error in qualifying
Korea - engine failure