2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

[CHT]

he has never lead in the championship throughout the season.

That is more a sign of how the driver and team squandered his chances rather than how he was fighting against the odds to be honest.

I actually think that main reason why Vettel has never lead the championship prior to winning the 2010 WDC was because he has a team mate which is capable of pole and win whenever RBR has a strong weekend. On the other hand Alonso is the only driver in that season who has a no. 1 status and doesnt have to a competitive teammate to compete for win or even podium.

Race Win in 2010
Ferrari - 5 wins (Alonso 5, Massa 0)
Mclaren - 5 wins (Lewis 3, Button 2)
RBR - 9 wins ( Vettel 5, Webber 4)

In 2007, when Lewis and Alonso were given equal status and competing each other for the championship, both end up 2nd and 3rd place with equal points and 4 wins each. Back then if Alonso were given the no.1 status like is currently enjoying at Ferrari, he would be a 3xWDC by now.

[RB7ate9]

Or it was simply Webber who failed to use all the potential stored in the RB7.

Can hardly blame the car because a driver can´t match his teammate. Do you think Alonso and Hamilton or even Raikkonen would have similar problems as Webber in that car? I doubt it to be honest.

Red Bull built the RB7 on the basis of building a quick car. Exactly the same basis for the year before.
It just so happened that one driver could not extract everything from it.

That´s like saying the Ferrari´s in the dynasty era was crap because Massa could not match Schumacher when in reality if he had a top top driver in the other seat chances are the results would be neck and neck.

It has been stated several times by Webber, Newey, and Horner, that the RB7 was better suited to Vettel's style of driving to carry more speed into the corner as well as having a more planted rear (please correct me if I am wrong). Considering the amount of podium finishes Webber had (10, and the only time finishing outside top 5 was retirement in Monza), he did try to push the car to its limits as well as his own. Unfortunately, the few poles he had couldn't be converted into more wins.

Edit: I understand what you are talking about in terms of the evolution of a car to make it faster. I am speaking of "dominance" in a different metric, not to exclude other examinations.

The Ferrari analogy is not apt because the RB7 was not a crap car, nor did I say it was. The RB7 is a superb car. The difference is that the RB6 is an all-around better TEAM car (able to complement several drivers/styles). The RB7 still wins out in terms of poles/wins, that is a fact.

[Juzh]

RB7 was certainly more dominant than RB6 in comparison to the grid, but the RB6 would destroy it in race even without kers or drs. double difuser was miles more effective at producing downforce than a simple EBD.

[Intego]

Plus RB6 had the double diffusor AND ebd.

It was not Newey but Vettel who stated that the RB6 was more dominant.

I think, with a less dominant car than last year, we were able to do a very, very good job.

Japanese GP 2011 Post Race Conference excerpt

[RB7ate9]

Plus RB6 had the double diffusor AND ebd.

It was not Newey but Vettel who stated that the RB6 was more dominant.

I think, with a less dominant car than last year, we were able to do a very, very good job.

Japanese GP 2011 Post Race Conference excerpt

And don't forget the F-duct and OTB and driver-adjustable FW. Lots of bits on that car, the RB6.

[Belatti]

Im flying to Sao Paulo tomorrow, I will attend an F1 race since Argentine GP 1998, with the plus that its the race for the title, so......

[Intego]

While driver-adjustable FW was a feature on all cars as lately also ebd and OTB (not Cosworth driven cars).

@ Belatti: I wish you the best experience one can imagine!

[Nando]

It has been stated several times by Webber, Newey, and Horner, that the RB7 was better suited to Vettel's style of driving to carry more speed into the corner as well as having a more planted rear (please correct me if I am wrong).

And you think this was a conscious move on Red Bull´s part?

It´s not that hard. If Vettel can take corner X at Y speeds then he´s proven the car is capable of at least that.
If Webber then jumps in the car and can´t make it work it´s hardly the cars fault, it´s unquestionably a problem that lies with Webber and his driving style.
Because Webber can´t extract everything from the car doesn´t mean the car is bad or any worse then the year before.
As i said, put Alonso or Hamilton in the other car and you would see them most likely matching Vettel everywhere.

we can turn it around and talk about this years car. When the car is bad, a dog, we usually see Webber cope with it much better then Vettel.

[RB7ate9]

It has been stated several times by Webber, Newey, and Horner, that the RB7 was better suited to Vettel's style of driving to carry more speed into the corner as well as having a more planted rear (please correct me if I am wrong).

And you think this was a conscious move on Red Bull´s part?

Personally? Yes. From learning the lessons of car and season, it makes sense to develop the best bits of the car even if it means the detriment of one of your drivers. It was obvious that Vettel could drive very well; give him a great car and he'll deliver. But that goes more into conspiracy territory.

It´s not that hard. If Vettel can take corner X at Y speeds then he´s proven the car is capable of at least that.
If Webber then jumps in the car and can´t make it work it´s hardly the cars fault, it´s unquestionably a problem that lies with Webber and his driving style.
Because Webber can´t extract everything from the car doesn´t mean the car is bad or any worse then the year before.
As i said, put Alonso or Hamilton in the other car and you would see them most likely matching Vettel everywhere.

I won't argue that if Webber can't do the same things in the RB7 that Vettel did, then it is a matter of Webber not being Vettel.

we can turn it around and talk about this years car. When the car is bad, a dog, we usually see Webber cope with it much better then Vettel.

And it is this bit that makes me, personally, consider part of the reason why the RB7 was built more to suit Vettel's style is that Red Bull understands that Webber can cope with different cars better - perhaps not 100% - but still handily. In 2011, Red Bull switched from supporting both drivers to rallying behind 1 to better secure the WDC/WCC faster. But, of course, only a theory.

As mentioned above, the RB6 had the benefit of no KERS batteries, nascent EBD, F-duct, FW Driver-Adjusted, nascent OTB, DD, and steeper rake. Whether this package made it seem more dominant in the mind of Vettel is unknown.

[Nando]

Personally? Yes. From learning the lessons of car and season, it makes sense to develop the best bits of the car even if it means the detriment of one of your drivers. It was obvious that Vettel could drive very well; give him a great car and he'll deliver. But that goes more into conspiracy territory.

So basically what you are saying is that they did not develop OTBD OBD to make the car quicker but it was because Vettel can cope with it better.
Sorry but that sounds ridiculous.
Newey drew the best car he could with the regulations at hand, it just so happens that Vettel extracted more from the car.

I won't argue that if Webber can't do the same things in the RB7 that Vettel did, then it is a matter of Webber not being Vettel.

Ok but now it contradicts everything else you have said because you have pointed to the fact that it´s the cars fault for not being able to cater to both drivers. Or that the car is less good then the RB6 because Webber can´t extract the time from it.

the rest confused me to much to respond to,

[RB7ate9]

My personal considerations do seem a bit ridiculous, hence "conspiracy territory". I admit to that.

As for "Webber not being Vettel", that doesn't take away from my statement that the RB7 was a Vettel-centric car. I didn't say "Webber not being as good as Vettel".

I am simply presenting a different metric for comparing cars season to season. There are always compromises in car design, compromising one driver's preferences for maximum performance can be one of them.

I'm sorry I didn't present the rest of my statements clearly enough. They were speculation anyways.

[Cam]

My personal considerations do seem a bit ridiculous, hence "conspiracy territory". I admit to that.

As for "Webber not being Vettel", that doesn't take away from my statement that the RB7 was a Vettel-centric car. I didn't say "Webber not being as good as Vettel".

I am simply presenting a different metric for comparing cars season to season. There are always compromises in car design, compromising one driver's preferences for maximum performance can be one of them.

I'm sorry I didn't present the rest of my statements clearly enough. They were speculation anyways.

Actually, I agree with you RB7ate9. Look at Massa this year. He's been nowhere, then all of sudden he's quicker than Alonso! There plenty of documentation on how the RB was developed for Vettel and how Vettel and Webbers styles are different - which explains a lot. You only need to search this forum for that evidence.

As bhallg2k signature says 'It's the car, stupid'.

[raymondu999]

When the car is bad, a dog, we usually see Webber cope with it much better then Vettel.

I actually don't think that this is a driving issue. IMO Vettel, after having the RB6 and RB7, has gotten used to a winning car, and his head drops slightly in a non-winner. When the RB8 has been more competitive, generally Vettel has been the one to scrounge more out of the car than Webber, which leads me to the conclusion that it's not a characteristic of the car that he isn't coping with. IMO Vettel's performance (relative to Webber) is pretty much correlated with how competitive the RB8 is on any particular day.

It's like cars. If you sold a Mazda and went to a Mercedes, that's all well and good. But if you were to suddenly trade back down to a Mazda - it's not easy. Even though you used to own a Mazda. Trading up is always easier than trading down.

[Hobbs04]

With a wet/dry quali on sat and a wet race on sun if you were Red Bull would you put Vettel on pole and risk race pace or go conservative and settle with 4th or 5th but have plenty of race pace?

I'm leaning on aggressive and put it on pole.

[raymondu999]

Interlagos is one of the least sensitive circuits when it comes to your wing-level setup vs laptime, with the added traction/braking/cornering balancing the increased drag. I'd consider setting up for the pole frankly. Clean air and the lack of spray can do wonders in a race.

I'd hate a mixed weather quali to be honest. I'd rather full-wet or full-dry