2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

CHT wrote:In 2007, when Lewis and Alonso were given equal status and competing each other for the championship, both end up 2nd and 3rd place with equal points and 4 wins each. Back then if Alonso were given the no.1 status like is currently enjoying at Ferrari, he would be a 3xWDC by now.
So what is that telling us? That Mclaren screwed up because they gave equal opportunities to both drivers? We knew this for some years. That Alonso could be a 3xWDC with team order? That was obvious as well. Or that Alonso can't win a championship against Vettel unless he is a clear #1? That is an equally obvious conclusion from the race in Austin where Ferrari dropped Massa five places to get Alonso on the clean side.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

CHT
CHT
-6
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

raymondu999 wrote:
Nando wrote:When the car is bad, a dog, we usually see Webber cope with it much better then Vettel.
I actually don't think that this is a driving issue. IMO Vettel, after having the RB6 and RB7, has gotten used to a winning car, and his head drops slightly in a non-winner. When the RB8 has been more competitive, generally Vettel has been the one to scrounge more out of the car than Webber, which leads me to the conclusion that it's not a characteristic of the car that he isn't coping with. IMO Vettel's performance (relative to Webber) is pretty much correlated with how competitive the RB8 is on any particular day.

It's like cars. If you sold a Mazda and went to a Mercedes, that's all well and good. But if you were to suddenly trade back down to a Mazda - it's not easy. Even though you used to own a Mazda. Trading up is always easier than trading down.
It could be a case of old dogs learning new trick. perhaps younger drivers are more adaptable to different driving style as compared to older drivers. Maybe thats the reason why many younger drivers seems to be able to qualify ahead of their older team mate

User avatar
Cam
45
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 08:38

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:
CHT wrote:In 2007, when Lewis and Alonso were given equal status and competing each other for the championship, both end up 2nd and 3rd place with equal points and 4 wins each. Back then if Alonso were given the no.1 status like is currently enjoying at Ferrari, he would be a 3xWDC by now.
So what is that telling us? That Mclaren screwed up because they gave equal opportunities to both drivers? We knew this for some years. That Alonso could be a 3xWDC with team order? That was obvious as well. Or that Alonso can't win a championship against Vettel unless he is a clear #1? That is an equally obvious conclusion from the race in Austin where Ferrari dropped Massa five places to get Alonso on the clean side.
So true. People forget the significant part the team plays in deciding the outcome - from whether to force the 2nd driver to support the 1st driver, when to force it, to when to let them duke it out on equal terms. Certainly Massa could have taken Alonso in Korea and certainly smashed him up in Austin - but Alonso came out on top both times - not because Alonso was the 'best' driver, but because the team said so. So who is the more deserving winner of the WDC when the team hobbles a faster team mate? Certainly a driver who wins because his team mate lets him, isn't deserving, no matter who the driver is.... just a thought.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

User avatar
Cam
45
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 08:38

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

CHT wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:
Nando wrote:When the car is bad, a dog, we usually see Webber cope with it much better then Vettel.
I actually don't think that this is a driving issue. IMO Vettel, after having the RB6 and RB7, has gotten used to a winning car, and his head drops slightly in a non-winner. When the RB8 has been more competitive, generally Vettel has been the one to scrounge more out of the car than Webber, which leads me to the conclusion that it's not a characteristic of the car that he isn't coping with. IMO Vettel's performance (relative to Webber) is pretty much correlated with how competitive the RB8 is on any particular day.

It's like cars. If you sold a Mazda and went to a Mercedes, that's all well and good. But if you were to suddenly trade back down to a Mazda - it's not easy. Even though you used to own a Mazda. Trading up is always easier than trading down.
It could be a case of old dogs learning new trick. perhaps younger drivers are more adaptable to different driving style as compared to older drivers. Maybe thats the reason why many younger drivers seems to be able to qualify ahead of their older team mate
The opposite could also be true - older drivers have more experience in more machines, so should be able gleen that experience to get them through situations - better - than a young driver.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

CHT
CHT
-6
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:
CHT wrote:In 2007, when Lewis and Alonso were given equal status and competing each other for the championship, both end up 2nd and 3rd place with equal points and 4 wins each. Back then if Alonso were given the no.1 status like is currently enjoying at Ferrari, he would be a 3xWDC by now.
So what is that telling us? That Mclaren screwed up because they gave equal opportunities to both drivers? We knew this for some years. That Alonso could be a 3xWDC with team order? That was obvious as well. Or that Alonso can't win a championship against Vettel unless he is a clear #1? That is an equally obvious conclusion from the race in Austin where Ferrari dropped Massa five places to get Alonso on the clean side.
Yes, I remember in 2010 many f1 journalists were actually questioning RBR strategy of not giving Webber the no. 1 status when he was leading the championship and saying RBR will be throwing away the WDC etc. And if not for the team or Dietrich Mateschitz decision to let them both have a fair chance even right till the final race, Vettel wouldnt have won the WDC in 2010.

Perhaps thats the reason why I think Vettel 2010 WDC will go down as one of the greatest championship of all time

CHT
CHT
-6
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

Cam wrote:
CHT wrote: It could be a case of old dogs learning new trick. perhaps younger drivers are more adaptable to different driving style as compared to older drivers. Maybe thats the reason why many younger drivers seems to be able to qualify ahead of their older team mate
The opposite could also be true - older drivers have more experience in more machines, so should be able gleen that experience to get them through situations - better - than a young driver.
Yes, thats why I say in qualifying because they only have a 1 or 2 laps to nail it.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

Adrian Newey wrote:"It's not a new component (the Magneti Marelli alternator). It's been on the Renault engine since 2005 -- and it's been failing since 2005..."
Didi Mateschitz wrote:I want Renault to separate from its supplier Magneti Marelli and use someone else.
So now we are in a position where the reliability of a components of the RB8 supplied by an Italian sub supplier may decide the 2012 FiA F1 driver world championship, which is contested by Red Bull's Vettel against Ferrari's Alonso.
Not a comfortable situation. If we shall see an alternator failure on Vettel's car in Brazil all hell will brake loose.
The conspiracy theorists will have a field day and rightly so.
I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope it will not happen.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Blue fellow
Blue fellow
1
Joined: 23 Apr 2012, 04:26

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

On the other end of the field, does anyone know the situation with Caterham and Marussia? Does Caterham need both cars to beat both Marussias? I went to the scoring to see how it was, forgetting they were both at 0 :lol:

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:[...]
The conspiracy theorists will have a field day and rightly so.
[...]
You have got to be kidding. Where on Earth do you come up with this ---?

Do you really think Ferrari pressured a supplier to provide faulty equipment to a bumbling, non-threatening rival beginning in 2005 on the off-chance it might come in handy seven years later?

(For what it's worth, this is why I can't take your opinions seriously.)

lukeaar
lukeaar
0
Joined: 01 Feb 2012, 23:09

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

Blue fellow wrote:On the other end of the field, does anyone know the situation with Caterham and Marussia? Does Caterham need both cars to beat both Marussias? I went to the scoring to see how it was, forgetting they were both at 0 :lol:
Caterham needs a 12th.

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

Blue fellow wrote:On the other end of the field, does anyone know the situation with Caterham and Marussia? Does Caterham need both cars to beat both Marussias? I went to the scoring to see how it was, forgetting they were both at 0 :lol:
1 Caterham driver would need to be placed higher than both Marussia drivers. Currently, Caterham have:

P13 - 3
P12 - 0

While Marussia have

P13 - 0
P12 - 1

And so they're beating Caterham on countback. Caterham would need to get P12 in Brazil. But that wouldn't be enough if Marussia got P11. And so on.

Long story short, this weekend Caterham would need to:
a) finish ahead of both Marussia cars
b) finish at least P12
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
Intego
10
Joined: 01 Apr 2010, 16:35

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

Hobbs04 wrote:With a wet/dry quali on sat and a wet race on sun if you were Red Bull would you put Vettel on pole and risk race pace or go conservative and settle with 4th or 5th but have plenty of race pace?

I'm leaning on aggressive and put it on pole.
Me, too. IMO Red Bull's strategy doesn't need to be changed. As different setups may be chosen in Interlagos the RB high downforce/low gear ratio setup will be fine for chasing the pole AND rainy Sunday. The only problem I see is: will they get their ride height right?
Correct me if I'm wrong. :wink:
"Posts targeted only at expressing favouritism or dislike towards people are treated as spam. They can hence be deleted without notice and could invoke a warning to the poster." f1technical forum rules

User avatar
Intego
10
Joined: 01 Apr 2010, 16:35

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

bhallg2k wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:[...]
The conspiracy theorists will have a field day and rightly so.
[...]
You have got to be kidding. Where on Earth do you come up with this ---?

Do you really think Ferrari pressured a supplier to provide faulty equipment to a bumbling, non-threatening rival beginning in 2005 on the off-chance it might come in handy seven years later?

(For what it's worth, this is why I can't take your opinions seriously.)
WB has clearly spoken of "conspiracy theorists", this doesn't imply that it's his belief. Also this theory wouldn't necessarily be "support backmarkers with crap, because they will be title contenders in a few years", but could be "don't solve the issues right now".

I think it was more down to devitalize such an argument.

PS: WB was not so wrong on assuming that a CT could come up. E.g. the Massa gearbox case: the whole world knew (and Ferrari openly admitted) that the seal was broken to put Alonso and eventually Massa on the clean side of the track. German "RTL" made a conspiracy dance, asked Marko if he believed that Massa really had gearbox problems etc. #-o
Last edited by Intego on 22 Nov 2012, 09:22, edited 1 time in total.
"Posts targeted only at expressing favouritism or dislike towards people are treated as spam. They can hence be deleted without notice and could invoke a warning to the poster." f1technical forum rules

User avatar
banibhusan
1
Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 13:08

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

bhallg2k wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:[...]
The conspiracy theorists will have a field day and rightly so.
[...]
You have got to be kidding. Where on Earth do you come up with this ---?

Do you really think Ferrari pressured a supplier to provide faulty equipment to a bumbling, non-threatening rival beginning in 2005 on the off-chance it might come in handy seven years later?

(For what it's worth, this is why I can't take your opinions seriously.)
Basically what he means (I think so in my wildest dreams) is conspiracy theorists will find way since the Renault engine uses alternators provided Magneti Marelli, which is owned by Fiat, the parent company of Ferrari.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: 2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

Post

Oh, I understand precisely what he meant. I understand the intention of such a statement, too.
Intego wrote:WB has clearly spoken of "conspiracy theorists", this doesn't imply that it's his belief. Also this theory wouldn't necessarily be "support backmarkers with crap, because they will be title contenders in a few years", but could be "don't solve the issues right now".

I think it was more down to devitalize such an argument.

PS: WB was not so wrong on assuming that a CT could come up. E.g. the Massa gearbox case: the whole world knew (and Ferrari openly admitted) that the seal was broken to put Alonso and eventually Massa on the clean side of the track. German "RTL" made a conspiracy dance, asked Marko if he believed that Massa really had gearbox problems etc. #-o
Do we need a lesson on how rumor mills work? Or innuendo?

Do not think about an elephant on a bicycle!!! (Now, what's the first thing that popped into your mind?)

And what's conspiratorial about something that's openly admitted? At that point, I'd call it a tactic, one that's no different than "Mark, maintain the gap," which, it should be said, happened when Vettel had a commanding lead in the Championship last year (and after he'd been given Webber's front wing). Am I to believe it's impossible that something similar happened behind the scenes this year when such help would actually be useful? C'mon.

Team orders have been around for as long as there have been teams in motorsport. It is what it is. However, that's a far cry from the insinuation that, either directly or indirectly, one team is tampering with another team's equipment. If anyone else had made that statement, or if it was the first time the offending poster said something baseless and untoward about a certain Italian team, I could easily dismiss it. But, this is all part and parcel for someone who often stirs --- up just for the sake of stirring --- up, especially when it concerns red cars. The pathology is very clear here.