About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

[FoxHound]

Ferrari road car DNA has always been about transferring their F1 technology into road cars, same as what Mclaren are doing with the MP4-12C etc. How they transfer or share their overhead and operating cost between road car and motor racing division is something which the company have to decide which is best for their bottom line.

So you are saying there is transfer from roadcars to F1 ?

[CHT]

Ferrari road car DNA has always been about transferring their F1 technology into road cars, same as what Mclaren are doing with the MP4-12C etc. How they transfer or share their overhead and operating cost between road car and motor racing division is something which the company have to decide which is best for their bottom line.

So you are saying there is transfer from roadcars to F1 ?

So I was saying..???? oh yes, the road car division will have to pay the motor racing division for any F1 technology which are being transfer and use in their road car. How much the F1 division charge their road car division is something which company have to decide internally. It could be $1m for a $100k parts, so as to channel more money into F1 division?

On the other hand, F1 team could also use their road car division, eg engine dept to design and fabricate their engine block and cam shaft etc and again, how much the road car division will charge their F1 counterpart is again is open to manipulation. Here the road car division could also under price their service so that F1 division can allocate more resources elsewhere.

[raymondu999]

Someone remind me why we're arguing about this again? Nobody is denying that RBT is a cost-management punchbag for RBR's benefit. It's legal. Other teams can do this too, should they choose.

[FoxHound]

So I was saying..???? oh yes, the road car division will have to pay the motor racing division for any F1 technology which are being transfer and use in their road car. How much the F1 division charge their road car division is something which company have to decide internally. It could be $1m for a $100k parts, so as to channel more money into F1 division?.

That is not what I'm talking about.

You are suggesting knowledge transfer from cars to F1, am I right?

Or are you saying they have to sell cars to fund F1?

[WhiteBlue]

I know a thing or two about Ferrari's structure. Beside the gestione sportiva they also have F1 clienti which is entirely outside the RRA. They have a Le Mans program and who would even know if they had another single seater program which in case of an official inquiry deals with a possible Indy cars, A1GP or other potential campaigns. All they had to do is park the surplus personnel in any one of their suitable departments and have them report over dotted lines to their old bosses. Piece of cake really. I'm not saying that Ferrari are doing it because I have no proof, but it is feasible and likely unless you are a blinkered Tifosi. According to Jean Todt Ferrari also has a budget of $125m - level with Red Bull. How on earth are they going to legally spend it in gestione sportiva if Red Bull Racing can spend it only by employing RBT as you say?

[CHT]

So I was saying..???? oh yes, the road car division will have to pay the motor racing division for any F1 technology which are being transfer and use in their road car. How much the F1 division charge their road car division is something which company have to decide internally. It could be $1m for a $100k parts, so as to channel more money into F1 division?.

That is not what I'm talking about.

You are suggesting knowledge transfer from cars to F1, am I right?

Or are you saying they have to sell cars to fund F1?

I dont wish to be responsible for your addiction to paraphrasing or selective reading.

[FoxHound]

I'm not following you.

I made a statement as to Red Bull technologies being able to assist Red bull racing.
How does selling MP4-12C's help McLaren the same way as RBT helps RBR?

[CHT]

I'm not following you.

I made a statement as to Red Bull technologies being able to assist Red bull racing.
How does selling MP4-12C's help McLaren the same way as RBT helps RBR?

The reason why I got involved in this discussion was to correct your statement that RBR actual f1 budget is around $600m per year, something which you went further to explain that Red Bull racing has a budget of 250 million. Red Bull Technologies has 350 million. The total of the 2 combined is 600 million plus per annum

In actual fact you are double counting the amount of money RBR paid to RBT for their services, and you have also omitted that RBT, with their $350m turn over, was also providing similar services (of lesser scale) to STR as will as F1 teams like Lotus and Caterham.

The reason why I brought up MP4-12C or Ferrar road car is that, the automotive division of Mclaren or Ferrari do have direct benefits from F1 technology, and any transfer of technology, goodwill, brand value etc from F1 to road car will mean that F1 division will set to gain from profitably business transaction; something which you cant do in RBR case because RBT doesnt sell cars and F1 technology is irrelevant to making energy drink.

And how much, for example, Mclaren Automotive is willing to pay to Mclaren Racing, is something which Mclaren could decide internally and privately.

[bhall]

I think it is highly speculative and plain wrong to speak about $350m in connection with the RRA.

[...] who would even know if [Ferrari] had another single seater program which in case of an official inquiry deals with a possible Indy cars, A1GP or other potential campaigns. All they had to do is park the surplus personnel in any one of their suitable departments and have them report over dotted lines to their old bosses. Piece of cake really. I'm not saying that Ferrari are doing it because I have no proof, but it is feasible and likely unless you are a blinkered Tifosi.
[...]

hypocrisy
\hi-ˈpä-krə-sē\
noun
1. The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense

[FoxHound]

Please can you point me where I said Red Bull racing's budget was 600 million?
The figures I quoted where from the newspiece Bhall posted. 250 for RBR and 350 for RBT=600 million every year.
This does not include STR's budget, which is seperate to that of either RBT or RBR.

The reason why I brought up MP4-12C or Ferrar road car is that, the automotive division of Mclaren or Ferrari do have direct benefits from F1 technology, and any transfer of technology, goodwill, brand value etc from F1 to road car will mean that F1 division will set to gain from profitably business transaction; something which you cant do in RBR case because RBT doesnt sell cars and F1 technology is irrelevant to making energy drink.

What does this have to do with transfer of technology, year on year Coanda development/F-duct/DDRS/XX amount of exhaust iterations/different front wing for every race?
A 458 has about as much relevance to an F2012 as my ass does to Martians anus. They're different beasts altogether, even if they share 4 wheels(1 hole) and a chassis(bum cheeks)
There is NO transfer from road cars to F1 cars, and if there is it would be universally adopted almost immediately.

As for RB not selling cars, as they're an energy drinks firm...well that's true. So we should give them a 350 million dollar dispensation annually as they deal in Taurine and not Petroleum?
That is where we are falling down.

Red Bull are obviously exploiting the loopholes. Red Bull technology have a turnover of 350 million dollars which is more than Mercedes turnsover on it's
1.Racing team,
2.Mercedes High perfomance engines,
3.It's KERS
4. Supply of 3 teams with engines and KERS combined.

On top of this, Red Bull then turnsover a further 250 million on its racing team.

On top of this, they don't pay for engines OR KERS.

Soon, things start to stack up.

[CHT]

Please can you point me where I said Red Bull racing's budget was 600 million?
The figures I quoted where from the newspiece Bhall posted. 250 for RBR and 350 for RBT=600 million every year.
This does not include STR's budget, which is seperate to that of either RBT or RBR.

The reason why I brought up MP4-12C or Ferrar road car is that, the automotive division of Mclaren or Ferrari do have direct benefits from F1 technology, and any transfer of technology, goodwill, brand value etc from F1 to road car will mean that F1 division will set to gain from profitably business transaction; something which you cant do in RBR case because RBT doesnt sell cars and F1 technology is irrelevant to making energy drink.

What does this have to do with transfer of technology, year on year Coanda development/F-duct/DDRS/XX amount of exhaust iterations/different front wing for every race?
A 458 has about as much relevance to an F2012 as my ass does to Martians anus. They're different beasts altogether, even if they share 4 wheels(1 hole) and a chassis(bum cheeks)
There is NO transfer from road cars to F1 cars, and if there is it would be universally adopted almost immediately.

As for RB not selling cars, as they're an energy drinks firm...well that's true. So we should give them a 350 million dollar dispensation annually as they deal in Taurine and not Petroleum?
That is where we are falling down.

Red Bull are obviously exploiting the loopholes. Red Bull technology have a turnover of 350 million dollars which is more than Mercedes turnsover on it's
1.Racing team,
2.Mercedes High perfomance engines,
3.It's KERS
4. Supply of 3 teams with engines and KERS combined.

On top of this, Red Bull then turnsover a further 250 million on its racing team.

On top of this, they don't pay for engines OR KERS.

Soon, things start to stack up.

You are most welcome to read back what you have posted and if you could provide some info on the source of your information on merc that will be great too as I don't think there is a need to start another looping cycle talking about the same thing. As for the budget on RBR and RBT, let's take it that your accounting method is just different

And btw, f458 was launch in 2009, so if you wish to find out its f1 DNA you should be looking at 2007 and 2008 season, not f2012

[FoxHound]

The sources have already been posted.

[FoxHound]

@CHT

Are you suggesting that the 2007-08-09-10 Ferrari f1 cars had technology adopted straight from the 458?

[CHT]

@CHT

Are you suggesting that the 2007-08-09-10 Ferrari f1 cars had technology adopted straight from the 458?

I honest don't understand why are you always askin question in the opposite direction when obviously we all know tat ferrari uses f1 technology to drive their road car program not the other way round.if you wsh to know f458 did adopted te f1 dual clutch system and their latest model is going to run kers as well.

[CHT]

The sources have already been posted.

You have posted te source of redbull as well but clearly you ae misintereted te numbers using your own account method which is dUplcating budget.