2013 Malaysian GP - Sepang

[WhiteBlue]

This is one of the typical arguments that we seem to run into all the time. IMO you simply ignore the relevant facts - that there is no engine development and no factual need to save engines - and create your own thin logic to support your opinion. I suggest you simply admit that you have over looked the most important points.

If there is no factual need to save engines, then why do the teams do it? Why do you think you know better than the teams? Name one single race in the last, say, 5 years where the teams have not saved engine life by turning the engines down. Just one. You make a bold claim, state it as fact, when it's just based on your opinion with no evidence at all and contrary to actual practice carried out by the teams who do have the facts. And then turn to slander by saying I'm ignoring your evidence - what evidence have you provided other than stating that the engines haven't been developed for a while? And that's not evidence in and of itself anyway if you actually think about it.

Spoken like a lawyer that you probably are. At least it looks to me that you do not understand balancing development and technology risks with operational measures. Naturally there is always a marginal safety benefit in engine saving but that has to be balanced against the detrimental effekt is has on the race drivers in this case. I have clearly identified that kind of unbalanced options Red Bull had on their plate. My considered opinion is that they got it terribly wrong and their 2013 campaign is exposed to great risks unnecessarily. Two fighting tom cats under one roof can be a catastrophe as McLaren learned to the ruin of their 2007 championship campaign. They clearly had the best car and lost it all. Just my humble opinion.

[turbof1]

There is definitely need to be easy on the engines. Last years teams often found themselves in situations where their engines could not perform as good as they should be, having being used so much they had a significant power loss. At the moment when Red Bull was 1-2 and Mercedes clearly backing off, the situation presented itself to turn down the rpm and put less stress on the engine. After all, winning the race with a 20 second lead is absolutely worthless to the team. Winning with a 5 seconds lead knowing you turned the engine down and avoided wear on the engine, is a big benefit. For the team AND the driver!

When the teams asks the drivers to turn their engines down, then they need to realise that that ensures engine performance at the end of the season and thus it is for their own well being. Drivers should understand that and do so, not let pride take them over. IMO, the team is not at fault concerning asking this from their drivers. It's a rational decision, which Vettel blatantly ignored. The team did reacted wrong on it though: instead of demanding Vettel to give the place back, they just complained. They delivered themselves a massive blow to their authority. I fear only radical decisions now will get Vettel back to being obedient. And Webber next time will be thinking of ramming Vettel into the wall instead of just squeezing him.

I don't see engines blow up too; 8 engines is enough to get a season round. So that is a little overboard, but power loss on the other hand is a given! In a world where teams are fighting to make gains smaller then a tenth of a second, loss of even a bit of horsepower is a sin.

[Gridlock]

And by "racing on the limit," you mean one guy on a compromised strategy (harder tires) being overtaken via DRS by the guy who compromised the strategy?

OK.

Remove the entire backstory, the characters, the team, everything, and imagine that's just 2 guys racing for 1st - that's poetry. I could watch that 100 times and still pick up little moments of genius, not to mention brass balls.

Plus, best ending ever.

[turbof1]

That's the problem: you can't remove it. We are not watching Vin Diesel race Paul Walker on a quarter mile jumping over a train track just avoiding an incoming train. Everybody would love it to be that simple, but F1 operates within limited engines, limited tyres and team orders. It's within the core of the racing serie.

I know this what we all want:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfV87TgYH78[/youtube]

But unfortunaly this is the reality:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u7EEdscVJI[/youtube]

[myurr]

And by "racing on the limit," you mean one guy on a compromised strategy (harder tires) being overtaken via DRS by the guy who compromised the strategy?

OK.

Remove the entire backstory, the characters, the team, everything, and imagine that's just 2 guys racing for 1st - that's poetry. I could watch that 100 times and still pick up little moments of genius, not to mention brass balls.

Plus, best ending ever.

If you remove the entire backstory then you have a fair fight and it would have been great racing. However it wasn't a fair fight. Vettel didn't go on the radio and say "Tell Webber to turn his engine back up, I want to fight this out." Instead he cowardly just used the situation to his advantage and attacked despite being told not to and despite Webber being told he wouldn't.

It's the equivalent of two boxers deciding before the match that after the second round they'll both just sit it out and wait for the bell, only for one to wade in and punch the other in the face as soon as the bell rang. Sure it made for a better fight, but it wasn't a fair fight and one competitor stole the advantage from the other. We can only speculate but I believe that had Webber thought Vettel was going to attack on the second lap after his pitstop then he would have pushed harder on those tyres for a lap or two to get out of the DRS zone. Vettel's cowardice and the lack of leadership from the pit wall denied him that opportunity and in doing so he stole the advantage.

Horner is now even giving interviews admitting that he's lost control of both drivers, saying this isn't the first time team orders have been ignored even if it is the most blatant. Honestly I think the team needs to either punish Vettel in a very public manner that hurts his WDC campaign in some small way, or either Horner or Webber need to leave. There's no trust, no authority, no discipline, and no sportsmanship in that team any more and sooner or later the PR story in the press will reflect that and Dietrich Mateschitz will realise that the current combination of personnel is damaging Red Bull's brand rather than helping it. It'll only be so long before someone comes up with a clever twist on a Red Bull advert portraying Vettel as the back stabbing villain...

[myurr]

Spoken like a lawyer that you probably are. At least it looks to me that you do not understand balancing development and technology risks with operational measures. Naturally there is always a marginal safety benefit in engine saving but that has to be balanced against the detrimental effekt is has on the race drivers in this case. I have clearly identified that kind of unbalanced options Red Bull had on their plate. My considered opinion is that they got it terribly wrong and their 2013 campaign is exposed to great risks unnecessarily. Two fighting tom cats under one roof can be a catastrophe as McLaren learned to the ruin of their 2007 championship campaign. They clearly had the best car and lost it all. Just my humble opinion.

I'm a computer programmer not a lawyer, but nice try.

As others are pointing out to you, but you're continuing to ignore, all engines have a life span and after a while you'll either damage them, blow them up, or lose power. There's one fact that you cannot deny, have not addressed, and blows your argument out of the water: ALL teams save their engines for at least some of the time in ALL races.

There's always a balance but there are huge benefits to saving the engines whenever you are able, one of the many reasons teams employ team orders (particularly after the final stops) to bring the cars home with as little wear and tear and risk as possible. Red Bull have employed the same tactics at every single race for the last few years, they aren't suddenly magically getting it wrong just because your golden boy is being criticised.

[fiohaa]

Mark Webber and Lewis Hamilton have said everything that needs to be said about the pirelli tyres and how they feel, in the press conference after the race. Go read the transcript.

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... ce-In-full

needless to say, anyone that things this tyre management racing is good is just wrong, plain and simple. People who actually enjoy RACING don't like it - the drivers don't like it - no one who enjoys on the limit racing finds it remotely interesting.

conclusion - anyone that likes it doesn't enjoy motorsport.

[Dragonfly]

If you remove the entire backstory then you have a fair fight and it would have been great racing. However it wasn't a fair fight. Vettel didn't go on the radio and say "Tell Webber to turn his engine back up, I want to fight this out." Instead he cowardly just used the situation to his advantage and attacked despite being told not to and despite Webber being told he wouldn't.

Do you have solid proofs Webber kept on safe mode during the fight or Vettel was in full power mode?

[Cam]

Right back at you, what specific evidence do you have to support that it's a code that means "car number 2 leads car number 1" ?

Oh sir, it is but my pleasure:

Webber was leading the race after the final stops, the Mercedes threat receding as Hamilton desperately saved fuel, so team orders were imposed. 'Multi 21' both drivers were instructed,a code that essentially means turn everything down, cease racing, hold position, save the tyres.
Source

Reading between the lines of Horner's explanation to the media after the race, the coded - and now infamous - 'multi-21' message to hold position would appear to have been given promptly after both drivers had completed their second stops on Lap 43: "When that last pit stop was complete, Mark was ahead - it was very close on pit exit. As far as we were concerned, it was a matter of managing the tyres to the end of race...and the instruction was given to both cars to effectively hold position."Source

As the fallout from Vettel disregarding Red Bull's 'Multi 21' team order so he could beat Mark Webber continues, the squad issued a short statement on Monday night.Source

The Australian gave Vettel the cold shoulder before the podium presentation, saying only "Multi-21, Seb. Multi-21" - a reference to Red Bull's race instructions.Source

"Sebastian disobeyed team orders and most, if not all the team, are disappointed with him," he said.Source

Now, I have obliged, as I have done in the past and can continue to do so - as you can see the media reports are vast and from reliable sources. I have given you a range of sources - all saying the same thing - Multi 21 is not a specific setting - but a code. Now if you and your mate SaX would be so kind to front up your evidence to support your theories - we can compare - but alas, at each opportunity none of you have. You're both fast with the back talk - but quite remote on hard facts.

Though you seem lost between what you will and won't accept, that's great to hear!

Not at all, I have offered evidence to support my theory - you have not. I have said many times that I am open to accepting your theory - if I see evidence - which you have never once supplied. You're trolling now - go away.

Is Multi 21 a code? All sources seem to indicate so. I'm not closed off to seeing evidence that it is indeed a specific setting that overides all other setting to put the car into cruise mode - but failing any multiple reliable sources that can confirm it - then this topic is closed.

edit: typos

[myurr]

If you remove the entire backstory then you have a fair fight and it would have been great racing. However it wasn't a fair fight. Vettel didn't go on the radio and say "Tell Webber to turn his engine back up, I want to fight this out." Instead he cowardly just used the situation to his advantage and attacked despite being told not to and despite Webber being told he wouldn't.

Do you have solid proofs Webber kept on safe mode during the fight or Vettel was in full power mode?

Only Webber's word that he could have gone faster were he not driving to a target. Suggests he wasn't in full power mode. Do you have solid proof to the contrary?

Either way it's irrelevant. The mere fact that Webber was being reassured over the radio that Vettel would not attack is enough affect the outcome and make it an unfair fight.

[sAx]

Right back at you, what specific evidence do you have to support that it's a code that means "car number 2 leads car number 1" ?

Oh sir, it is but my pleasure:

Webber was leading the race after the final stops, the Mercedes threat receding as Hamilton desperately saved fuel, so team orders were imposed. 'Multi 21' both drivers were instructed,a code that essentially means turn everything down, cease racing, hold position, save the tyres.
Source

Reading between the lines of Horner's explanation to the media after the race, the coded - and now infamous - 'multi-21' message to hold position would appear to have been given promptly after both drivers had completed their second stops on Lap 43: "When that last pit stop was complete, Mark was ahead - it was very close on pit exit. As far as we were concerned, it was a matter of managing the tyres to the end of race...and the instruction was given to both cars to effectively hold position."Source

As the fallout from Vettel disregarding Red Bull's 'Multi 21' team order so he could beat Mark Webber continues, the squad issued a short statement on Monday night.Source

The Australian gave Vettel the cold shoulder before the podium presentation, saying only "Multi-21, Seb. Multi-21" - a reference to Red Bull's race instructions.Source

"Sebastian disobeyed team orders and most, if not all the team, are disappointed with him," he said.Source

Now, I have obliged, as I have done in the past and can continue to do so - as you can see the media reports are vast and from reliable sources. I have given you a range of sources - all saying the same thing - Multi 21 is not a specific setting - but a code. Now if you and your mate SaX would be so kind to front up your evidence to support your theories - we can compare - but alas, at each opportunity none of you have. You're both fast with the back talk - but quite remote on hard facts.

Though you seem lost between what you will and won't accept, that's great to hear!

Not at all, I have offered evidence to support my theory - you have not. I have said many times that I am open to accepting your theory - if I see evidence - which you have never once supplied. You're trolling now - go away.

Is Multi 21 a code? All sources seem to indicate so. I'm not closed off to seeing evidence that it is indeed a specific setting that overides all other setting to put the car into cruise mode - but failing any multiple reliable sources that can confirm it - then this topic is closed.

edit: typos

Don't you know when to stop? Like err.... quit whilst your going is gettting worse!

[Cam]

Don't you know when to stop? Like err.... quit whilst your going is gettting worse!

So I see rather than offer some supporting evidence, anything, to counter my argument - you've again simply tired to stir the pot - you sir are a troll - and I will not reply to any further of your posts.

[beelsebob]

Don't you know when to stop? Like err.... quit whilst your going is gettting worse!

Given that he just gave you a really good list of evidence, as was asked for, nee demanded, I don't really think you have the right to say that.

Perhaps you should give some evidence to support your theory.

[myurr]

Time to watch it again. Webber was slow at one point in the middle of the stint, at the request of his engineers, and after Vettel made that disparaging call he was asked to up his pace a couple of laps later. He did this and Vettel was unable to keep up. By the time they were into their pitstop window Vettel was a few seconds behind Webber.

He was 1,8s behind. Webber even got 2 drs helps from backmarkers. The damage has been done by then anyway.

Actually at the time that they pitted Vettel for the last time before Webber pitted a lap later the gap was 4.2 seconds. He pulled that gap after Vettel had radio in to say that Webber was too slow...

[i70q7m7ghw]

Right back at you, what specific evidence do you have to support that it's a code that means "car number 2 leads car number 1" ?

Oh sir, it is but my pleasure:

Webber was leading the race after the final stops, the Mercedes threat receding as Hamilton desperately saved fuel, so team orders were imposed. 'Multi 21' both drivers were instructed,a code that essentially means turn everything down, cease racing, hold position, save the tyres.
Source

Reading between the lines of Horner's explanation to the media after the race, the coded - and now infamous - 'multi-21' message to hold position would appear to have been given promptly after both drivers had completed their second stops on Lap 43: "When that last pit stop was complete, Mark was ahead - it was very close on pit exit. As far as we were concerned, it was a matter of managing the tyres to the end of race...and the instruction was given to both cars to effectively hold position."Source

As the fallout from Vettel disregarding Red Bull's 'Multi 21' team order so he could beat Mark Webber continues, the squad issued a short statement on Monday night.Source

The Australian gave Vettel the cold shoulder before the podium presentation, saying only "Multi-21, Seb. Multi-21" - a reference to Red Bull's race instructions.Source

"Sebastian disobeyed team orders and most, if not all the team, are disappointed with him," he said.Source

Now, I have obliged, as I have done in the past and can continue to do so - as you can see the media reports are vast and from reliable sources. I have given you a range of sources - all saying the same thing - Multi 21 is not a specific setting - but a code. Now if you and your mate SaX would be so kind to front up your evidence to support your theories - we can compare - but alas, at each opportunity none of you have. You're both fast with the back talk - but quite remote on hard facts.

Though you seem lost between what you will and won't accept, that's great to hear!

Not at all, I have offered evidence to support my theory - you have not. I have said many times that I am open to accepting your theory - if I see evidence - which you have never once supplied. You're trolling now - go away.

Is Multi 21 a code? All sources seem to indicate so. I'm not closed off to seeing evidence that it is indeed a specific setting that overides all other setting to put the car into cruise mode - but failing any multiple reliable sources that can confirm it - then this topic is closed.

edit: typos

All of your sources are media reports which are all speculation, lets stick to confirmed quotes from Formula 1 team members please. Or confirmed technical information.

On the final quote, team orders can also be an order to use an engine mode, this is where I mentioned earlier about people blurring the lines between an order from the team not to pass a team mate, and an order from an engineer to save fuel/tyres etc.

I'm sick of trying to convince someone who thinks he's the be all and end all of Formula 1 team radio. You want to believe in fanboy media dramas between drivers instead of real TECHNICAL analysis on a TECHNICAL forum so be it.