Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

[FoxHound]

Would this not be a bit moot for 2013, given that 2014 will require completely different cooling solutions?
Maybe this will not see the light of day until next year....

Also, and in line with someone commenting on Mercedes employing a tyre guru... They have.
Back in 2010 I recall... A Bridgestone fellow.

[marcush.]

they claim to understand for quite a while now ...
it sure is depressing to watch them fail to identify the solution and implement it.Obviously there are people around who know what to do I do not subscribe to the theory Lotus does not know what they do right with tyres.

[Dyanxx]

Don't know if it's been said before, but Mercedes setting up the car for qualifying glory then going backwards in the race is not cool.

I take it you missed every FP session then? since all weekend they focused on their long runs and to see if they had fixed their tyre deg problems, they definitely didn't set their car up for Qualy only, they did the opposite actually.

[FoxHound]

they claim to understand for quite a while now ...
it sure is depressing to watch them fail to identify the solution and implement it.Obviously there are people around who know what to do I do not subscribe to the theory Lotus does not know what they do right with tyres.

What can you see visually that Mercedes can implement from Lotus?

From what Mercedes have said, it is in the preparation of the tyre that they are failing....they assume. Everything is being looked at here, as all efforts to regain some form of control of degradation have thus far come up short.
My own opinion is that it is a combination of things that exacerbate the problem.

FRICS allied to the Mercedes V8 power delivery is a massive issue, Mercedes haven't really suffered front end problems as they have with the rear. And, as maps are limited an have to be presented before the season start you have no lee way in "tuning" the engine for optimal delivery from track to track.
In a nutshell, the problem could be "frozen in" for a season. Given past history of the team with tyres I have to say I'm pessimistic as to a solution being found this year.

[NewtonMeter]

they claim to understand for quite a while now ...
it sure is depressing to watch them fail to identify the solution and implement it.Obviously there are people around who know what to do I do not subscribe to the theory Lotus does not know what they do right with tyres.

What can you see visually that Mercedes can implement from Lotus?

From what Mercedes have said, it is in the preparation of the tyre that they are failing....they assume. Everything is being looked at here, as all efforts to regain some form of control of degradation have thus far come up short.
My own opinion is that it is a combination of things that exacerbate the problem.

FRICS allied to the Mercedes V8 power delivery is a massive issue, Mercedes haven't really suffered front end problems as they have with the rear. And, as maps are limited an have to be presented before the season start you have no lee way in "tuning" the engine for optimal delivery from track to track.
In a nutshell, the problem could be "frozen in" for a season. Given past history of the team with tyres I have to say I'm pessimistic as to a solution being found this year.

The frustrating thing is exactly that, they knew the maps before the season started and obviously knew the power delivery of their engine. So if this is the problem - and it's a big if - they didn't do their job properly.

Now please, don't ge me wrong. I'm an engineer, and heaven knows I've --- up badly on a few occasions. So I'm not unsympathetic and hold the opinion that any mistake that's admitted is forgiveable. But not when the mistake is repeated over and over again. It's so difficult to make peace with the fact that the tyres are once again the problem.

[FoxHound]

@NewtonMeter

It's a moving target for Mercedes, probably more so than any other team. I'm not making excuses, just looking at the facts as they are.

Of all the top teams they have the least experience with Coanda exhausts. They where also alleged to be running 15kgs more fuel than other teams in Japan last year according to Michael Schumacher.
These problems have been addressed to an extent, but other teams have moved on too.

Then we have Pirelli constantly changing tyres from year to year. Even changing it in season. Mercedes have thus far been quiet compared to Red bull who outright blame Pirelli for making a a tyre that is unsuitable for racing.
Well change is on the way, and perhaps this may assist Mercedes.

Maps where chosen right up to the end of testing this year. Barcelona was a colder track than normal, and Mercedes stints in testing where comparable to all front running teams. To put it bluntly, Mercedes assumed tyres where no longer an issue, or relative to the competition Mercedes where not behind but on par to the front running teams.

On top of this we have FRICS. How it interacts with the tyre etc.

A handle on these tyres needs to be had, I fully concur. It is pointless having a car as fast as the W04 which then proceeds to reverse down the grid due to its tyre management. Everyone knows that, however promising pole position is.
So we will have to wait and see what Pirelli come up with again...and how Mercedes react to the change.
All still to play for,

[jav]

My opinion (as an engineer as well)- is that the tires are an issue but they are a constraint that is common to all teams. Each team knows, and has known for some time, that preserving the tires is single largest factor in scoring points. So much so that last season, Mercedes declared a haitus in car development for the sole purpose of understading the tires. Marko has commented that F1 is no longer racing but a tire managment contest. Schumacher was quite vocal about the tires even when others were still being politically correct. We KNOW tires are an issue. We know that constant changes to tires are an issue...BUT we also know every team has had to deal with this same issue but Mercedes, with all their brain power, seems to contually stuggle to greater degree than many on the grid.

There's no way to sugar coat it. Everyone knows this is the single largest contributing factor to success and it is clear that Mercedes are lost on this. That they are top 4 or 5 despite this HUGE shortcoming is fantastic. BUT, any hope of climbing higher on the grid, this year or next, is a longshot if the tires or their approach to them doesn't drastically change.

[Vasconia]

the problem comes from pre-Mercedes era and i cannot see a solution for this.

Paddy Lowe might.

I thought exactly the same with Aldo Costa, but sadly the results are far from being good.

[f1gang]

bring back refuel and tires getting good for racing...just thinking

[Hail22]

The second one is some kind of revolution cooling system, which use 30% less liquid. This would give an aero advantige and would compensate the increased fuel at the start of a race (which is their second big problem).

This falls in line with the preseason rumor that they're now working with an American company on a radical cooling solution.

Lewis and his Bulldogs reaction:



Bulldog: Did you know this was going on?

Lewis: No...I thought we were based in the UK...news to me

On Topic: It's still rumor until a solid / credible source comes forward.

[yener]

Lets wait and see what happens in Monaco. Last year Michael was the fastest guy in Qualy.

Thing the mechanical grip is not bad and with the fric system it has to be improved. I'm sure both cars will be in top 5 at saturday.

[Pierce89]

Lets wait and see what happens in Monaco. Last year Michael was the fastest guy in Qualy.

Thing the mechanical grip is not bad and with the fric system it has to be improved. I'm sure both cars will be in top 5 at saturday.

I think FRIC is more about controlling the aero platform more than an increase in mechanical grip. Obviously, I could be wrong.

[yener]

Lets wait and see what happens in Monaco. Last year Michael was the fastest guy in Qualy.

Thing the mechanical grip is not bad and with the fric system it has to be improved. I'm sure both cars will be in top 5 at saturday.

I think FRIC is more about controlling the aero platform more than an increase in mechanical grip. Obviously, I could be wrong.

Fric is an interlinked suspension system which connects all the tyres (suspension) which each other. Cant see what it has to do with aerodynamics. If you would say that fric is screwing the aerodynamics in mid and highspeed corners i would understand. But like i said earlier, we all have to see and wait what happens in the next race. Mechanical grip is everything in monaco.

[marcush.]

fric is not aero in itself but one of its main benefits is pitch control of the car and that is almost entirely driven by aero needs (rake - pitch stability under dynmic loads will help you to keep the car in favoured areas of the aeromap of the car)
with a groundeffect car vertical response of the car is always there to help aero first and then only to help other needs one might have.

[Pierce89]

fric is not aero in itself but one of its main benefits is pitch control of the car and that is almost entirely driven by aero needs (rake - pitch stability under dynmic loads will help you to keep the car in favoured areas of the aeromap of the car)
with a groundeffect car vertical response of the car is always there to help aero first and then only to help other needs one might have.

Thanks for explaining what "controlling the aero platform" means. I lose my patience when someone says suspension has nothing to do with aero(especially in an f1 context).