Mechanics of Mercedes problems

[kilcoo316]

More grip (through better planting of the car through corners, more downforce, etc) = a faster car through the corners = more work being done by the tyre = more heat.

Given that Mercedes are going slower through the corners than the rest (as evident by the slower laptimes) throughout the race, then that doesn't stack up.

If two cars are going exactly the same speed around all sections of a track, one will not have a higher tyre degradation than the other due to having more grip.


[Note - I probably should have said... This train of thought of "more grip = more wear" with regards Mercedes is, quite frankly, ridiculous.]

[Richard]

Given that Mercedes are going slower through the corners than the rest (as evident by the slower laptimes) throughout the race, then that doesn't stack up.

I think the hypothesis is that they have the fastest quali laptime but at the expense of punishing the tyres too much, hence slower in the race.

[timbo]

Given that Mercedes are going slower through the corners than the rest (as evident by the slower laptimes) throughout the race, then that doesn't stack up.

I think the hypothesis is that they have the fastest quali laptime but at the expense of punishing the tyres too much, hence slower in the race.

But why they don't push even when straight out of pits? Why Rosberg was able to put some fast laps near the end of the stint?
I'd do Hamilton's laps later. As he's on 4 stopper it would be interesting to compare him to Alonso.

[pocketmoon]

Given that Mercedes are going slower through the corners than the rest (as evident by the slower laptimes) throughout the race, then that doesn't stack up.

I think the hypothesis is that they have the fastest quali laptime but at the expense of punishing the tyres too much, hence slower in the race.

I agree about none of this stacking up In Spain quali they flew in the 'technical' sector 3 and Nico was down in 15th in the speed trap. The merc is a monster through the corners therefore must have more available grip and therefore the tyres are doing more useful work through the corners. The cars higher up the speed trap are doing more work on the straights and less through the corners which perhaps favors the pirellis. The stresses on the tyres are going to be different doing straight line work vs cornering work and perhaps this knacks the Merc's rears. So they have to slow down in the corners which is where their pace is coming from.

[kilcoo316]

I think the hypothesis is that they have the fastest quali laptime but at the expense of punishing the tyres too much, hence slower in the race.

Well... I did state in the Feb/March testing threads that their quick times could well be due to them getting heat into the tyres quicker than the rest... meaning they can extract more from the tyre on that first lap... and, if that were the case, that they could struggle to keep a lid on tyre thermals over longer runs come the summer time*.

I guess we can safely say now that it has indeed come to pass.


*Of course, a bunch of much more knowledgeable Merc fanbois jumped down my throat at the suggestion.




None of which actually explains what is causing the problem... which is more what this thread is about - and my current postings are addressing the lunatic idea that they may have too much grip.

[kilcoo316]

In Spain quali they flew in the 'technical' sector 3 and Nico was down in 15th in the speed trap. The merc is a monster through the corners therefore must have more available grip and therefore the tyres are doing more useful work through the corners.

Correlation does not necessarily indicate causality.

Unless you are ripping the tyre surface (i.e. sliding/slipping), lower speed corners will tend to wear the tyres less as the energies involved are significantly less.

Their speed through the last sector in quali, is more indicative of them having additional heat in the tyres, keeping them chemically "turned on" (ooh err ) longer than the rest and hence having more grip in them last few slow corners. But, during longer runs, the heat accumulates, overheating the tyre and resulting in both detrimental changes in both grip and degradation.



If I had to make a wild assed guess (and that's all it is, a guess) - I'd start by looking at my suspension geometry under significant load deflection (high speed cornering) for the load distribution across the tyre face and through both (inboard and outboard) sidewalls and my downforce level across the rear axle (inside to outside wheel) - again for high speed corners.

But, there are much more informed and experienced folks than me in Merc that haven't got a handle on it yet, so the problem would appear to be not an obvious one... [i.e. meaning my guess is very very likely to be wrong.]

[Pup]

Alex Wurtz seems to think that their problems are in just not having the wealth of testing data that some of the other teams have, mainly because BAR never saved any of it. Not so sure of that, but here he goes, via TJ13...

Ex Formula 1 driver and test driver during the Honda era in Brackley [Alex Wurtz] believes he has identified the problem Mercedes have. He tells Sports Week that during the BAR and Honda era, even though he ploughed around the track countless times for them, nobody bothered to save the data properly.

“It’s crazy after all that testing that the knowledge was not properly documented at the time and, but just existed within the team informally and in the minds of individual employees.” Wurz adds that as key employees left the team so did their know how.

[pocketmoon]

If I had to make a wild assed guess (and that's all it is, a guess) - I'd start by looking at my suspension geometry under significant load deflection (high speed cornering) for the load distribution across the tyre face and through both (inboard and outboard) sidewalls and my downforce level across the rear axle (inside to outside wheel) - again for high speed corners.

So suspension dynamics put more energy through the tyres => heats them up => makes them grippier

Extra heat + extra available grip (faster cornering) = higher degradation.

[kilcoo316]

So suspension dynamics put more energy through the tyres => heats them up => makes them grippier

No.... and yes.

It will make the tyre grippier until you are over the thermal optimum of the tyre, after which you are losing grip... when you are above the thermal window of the tyre, this lack of grip is only exacerbated.

Hence, they are quick over a lap or 2 as they get heat into the tyre quick and can better exploit the "new" rubber advantage. But, after those laps, they overheat the tyres, fall out of the thermal window then both lose grip and increase degradation.


But, this is not a result of the Mercedes car having "too much" inherent mechanical or aerodynamic grip, its a result of the way it heats its tyres and gets more chemical grip out of the tyre compared to the other teams on that 1 qualifying lap.


edit: reading between the lines, I do get the feeling you've missed the point of that post. Merc's problem is the way they work the tyre, not 'cos the car is too fast. Indeed, if they worked the tyre right, that car would likely be qualifying P6-ish.

[timbo]

Alex Wurtz seems to think that their problems are in just not having the wealth of testing data that some of the other teams have, mainly because BAR never saved any of it. Not so sure of that, but here he goes, via TJ13...

Ex Formula 1 driver and test driver during the Honda era in Brackley [Alex Wurtz] believes he has identified the problem Mercedes have. He tells Sports Week that during the BAR and Honda era, even though he ploughed around the track countless times for them, nobody bothered to save the data properly.

“It’s crazy after all that testing that the knowledge was not properly documented at the time and, but just existed within the team informally and in the minds of individual employees.” Wurz adds that as key employees left the team so did their know how.

That's interesting as BAR-Honda never managed to capitalized on the success. There history is ups and downs following. And if what he says is correct coupled with Honda's policy of rotating the stuff I see where that could lead...
Although not sure any of the data they collected in the grooved tyres era is of any relevance now.

[marcush.]

i think their poor full load pace and tire consumption is inherent in their FRIC system. it has too much static friction, too much inertia, or high pumping hysteresis. whatever it is, it's causing the tires to load up on every steering input or bump encountered, it doesnt react quickly enough, and so it is overworking the tires.
i also think Lotus specifically dont have this problem, while still benefitting from a crosslinked suspension system, because their suspension package is largely conventional, with the crosslinking being a "tuning aid'. the FRIC part is smaller, handles less of the energy dissipation, runs lower internal pressures, etc.
later in the race, the car just starts edging into the tires' now-wider operating window.

Rosberg was not slow at the start of the race...

What about this:

MGP laments over tyre but in reality their problem is fuel consumption?
Think about it : the car is competitive at ultra low fuellevels and it is at one point or another in the race not really palusible when you think tyres .
But it does well male sense when considering fuellloads and the need to save fuel from early on in the race.

Maybe MGP made a VIRGIN producing a car deliberately short on Fuel capacity ...and short fuels because of no other option available.
Intriguingly this year we have had no Safety cars this year ...something very unusual....

[timbo]

MGP laments over tyre but in reality their problem is fuel consumption?

I've raised the point that it might be something other than the tyres. Or tyres PLUS something which make them slower as the race progresses.

[marcush.]

First of all my belief is simulation and numerics will not produce winning cars .My understanding is that all this will bring you into the ballpark and that´s roughly wer you would expect a new team like HRT ,Marussia or Caterham .

Add to that a bigger bag of cash and you can produce more parts to evaluate and you may or may not find combos that work a lot better than others.

Add to that DOE and you get to the best combos with less laps in less time

Add a even bigger bag of cash and test your components around the clock to produce reliability

Add some voodoo priest -Newey ,Byrne,Barnard,Murray,Key or some unsung hero and you have a competitive edge

Find a lever to prie a piece of regulation in your favour to get that unfair advantage if you happpen not to own Newey...

Since testing no more all teams have lost the plot big time at least once ....they are kidding themselves with their simulation only approach .Things do not go wrong as epic fails these days ....but the tools available can surely not cure a problem caused by using the tools ....and as you cannot correlate with trackdata chances are yyou get lost big time again and again as the borders of correlation become apparent and obvious only when already crossed....

[Paul]

What really strikes me is how slow Hamilton was through turn 3 after the start. On one hand, that might be an anomaly, on the other, it might be that they aren't really that good at heating up the tyres or, on the contrary, the extreme heat cycles they put them through before and during the qualifying mean they are shot by the start of the race.

Also, while the order to keep the bunch compact during the form-up lap would point at borderline engine temperatures, with Mercedes I can't discard it's somehow relevant to tyre conditioning...

[marcush.]

What really strikes me is how slow Hamilton was through turn 3 after the start. On one hand, that might be an anomaly, on the other, it might be that they aren't really that good at heating up the tyres or, on the contrary, the extreme heat cycles they put them through before and during the qualifying mean they are shot by the start of the race.

Also, while the order to keep the bunch compact during the form-up lap would point at borderline engine temperatures, with Mercedes I can't discard it's somehow relevant to tyre conditioning...

I thought it was aimed at the competitors -preventing them to perform their optimum heatup procedure.worked for Nico not for Lewis...You could see how most of the guys in the first 4or 5 rows had almost no chance to properly precond their tyres without running into the guy in front.