Lotus E21 Renault

[Huntresa]

just how poor Lotus is financially??

why couldn't they offer both drivers full package of new updates?? ( of course the slim bodywork is impossible to work with DRD at this time. However, Alan Permane assured me on twitter that they will achieve that in Nurburgring and Hungary)

I dont actually think they have that big money problems, seeing as they got some from the Genii sales the other week.

[Blackout]

Alan Permane assured me on twitter that they will achieve that in Nurburgring and Hungary)

Interesting. but why did you/he say '''Nurburgring AND Hungary'' ?

Edit: ah he said ''Nurburgring or Hungary''

[Kansas]

Alan Permane assured me on twitter that they will achieve that in Nurburgring and Hungary)

Interesting. but why did you/he say '''Nurburgring AND Hungary'' ?

Edit: ah he said ''Nurburgring or Hungary''

maybe Hungary given now they need to modify their front suspension for nurburgring. Might not have enough time to incorporate DRD with the new engine cover.

[Kansas]

just how poor Lotus is financially??

why couldn't they offer both drivers full package of new updates?? ( of course the slim bodywork is impossible to work with DRD at this time. However, Alan Permane assured me on twitter that they will achieve that in Nurburgring and Hungary)

I dont actually think they have that big money problems, seeing as they got some from the Genii sales the other week.

Only genii earned money from selling the stakes, not the team.

[quidam]

People working on the suspensions are not the same for the bodywork.

[Kansas]

People working on the suspensions are not the same for the bodywork.

Good to hear.

[turbof1]

Alan Permane assured me on twitter that they will achieve that in Nurburgring and Hungary)

Interesting. but why did you/he say '''Nurburgring AND Hungary'' ?

Edit: ah he said ''Nurburgring or Hungary''

maybe Hungary given now they need to modify their front suspension for nurburgring. Might not have enough time to incorporate DRD with the new engine cover.

Actually drd and the new engine cover exclude eachother. The engine cover focussed on reducing the cooling outlet area on the back, but that is exactly the place the drd pipe is installed. It effectively undoes the work there.

[iotar__]

Ok, Grosjean had new slim rear bodywork. Kimi had DRD.

Kimi was 8-0 in Qualifying battles with Grosjean this year. Silverstone is the first GP this year where Grosjean outqualified Kimi. That tells me (at least me) that slim rear bodywork is real improvement, a couple of tenths. Also, I don't believe DRD is negative on time delta. It should help at leas a tenth per lap. So, Kimi with new rear bodywork should be real threat.

This is one of the weirdest, not related in any way to car, based on nothing, non-technical posts I've ever seen on this forum. What two tenths? What one tenth? What negative delta? What 8:0? What real threat? Three tenths combined?

To make it simple: ANY kind of result in qualifying (I assume qualifying not race is your point of reference,
why?) in Germany EITHER WAY will prove NOTHING regarding gains from either of updates packages. For obvious reasons:
- no data to back it up
- mixing human element over one lap in qualifying with gains that were recorded by the team (development, tests, straight line test, Silverstone practice) and approved by lead driver. [Then of course there was silence from the team after qualifying regarding updates, which kind of stops discussion about it]
- logic of separating update packages based on data and possible gains with regard to drivers (leading, second). Even if we're dealing with estimations and results that don't match them, such conclusions as posted above make no sense at all
- all others obvious variables (track, weather and so on)

And not obvious: like familiarity and amount of set up, tweaking and adjusting it takes to make 'device' work based on preferences from driver and obvious differences in that regard. Including past data and experience from tests, qualifying and full race. If you're willing to quantify all that and make a comparison having no information from the team than good luck.

[Blackout]

maybe Hungary given now they need to modify their front suspension for nurburgring. Might not have enough time to incorporate DRD with the new engine cover.

Actually drd and the new engine cover exclude eachother. The engine cover focussed on reducing the cooling outlet area on the back, but that is exactly the place the drd pipe is installed. It effectively undoes the work there.

Reducing, reshaping and lowering the outlet in order to Improve airflow towards the beam wing and the 'monkey seat' IMO
So I think the new bodywork + DRD will remain thinner than the old bodywork.
And I wonder if the lower pipe of the DRD is now dispensable because of the thinner bodywork... What is it's exact purpose after all ? does the lower DRD pipe help the 'monkey seat'/beam wing create downforce directly/indirectly or does the rounded monkey seat help air extraction from the lower pipe by lowering the pressure behind its outlet ?

Here a comparison between the new bodywork and the old one + DRD
+ a photoshopped new bodywork + DRD : P

[Blackout]

PS: I don't think Lotus is using the lower pipe to help the GearBox's radiator like Ferari and Mclaren did in 2010.

[turbof1]

maybe Hungary given now they need to modify their front suspension for nurburgring. Might not have enough time to incorporate DRD with the new engine cover.

Actually drd and the new engine cover exclude eachother. The engine cover focussed on reducing the cooling outlet area on the back, but that is exactly the place the drd pipe is installed. It effectively undoes the work there.

Reducing, reshaping and lowering the outlet in order to Improve airflow towards the beam wing and the 'monkey seat' IMO
So I think the new bodywork + DRD will remain thinner than the old bodywork.
And I wonder if the lower pipe of the DRD is not dispensable with the thinner bodywork... What is it's exact purpose after all ? does the lower DRD pipe help the 'monkey seat'/beam wing create downforce directly/indirectly or does the rounded monkey seat help air extraction from the lower pipe by lowering the pressure behind its outlet ?

Here a comparison between the new bodywork and the old one + DRD
+ a photoshopped new bodywork + DRD

http://www10.pic-upload.de/02.07.13/a689skyjrykz.jpg

Nicely done. +1 from me.

That way it does look doable, but doesn't the pipe defeat the point of tighter bodywork? It just hangs there, blocking airflow to the rear wing.
The big pipe is essentially there to dispense air when the drd isn't stalling. They reroute the airflow to the monkey seat which works like a mini diffuser, delivering a bit of extra downforce. I guess they need that pipe right there, as the "drd mini pipe" is a junction on it. I also suppose they need the big pipe placed that high, else the drd pipe has to be longer, which could affect at which speed the rear wing stalls. It doesn't look like there is a different way; the more efficient 2010 mclaren solution, by adding a shark fin right from to gearbox to the rear wing, is forbidden, as area between the rear wing and a certain length inwards from the rol hoop is prohibited from bodywork. Lotus effectively had to go around that forbidden zone.

[MarkedOne8]

Ok, Grosjean had new slim rear bodywork. Kimi had DRD.

Kimi was 8-0 in Qualifying battles with Grosjean this year. Silverstone is the first GP this year where Grosjean outqualified Kimi. That tells me (at least me) that slim rear bodywork is real improvement, a couple of tenths. Also, I don't believe DRD is negative on time delta. It should help at leas a tenth per lap. So, Kimi with new rear bodywork should be real threat.

This is one of the weirdest, not related in any way to car, based on nothing, non-technical posts I've ever seen on this forum. What two tenths? What one tenth? What negative delta? What 8:0? What real threat? Three tenths combined?

To make it simple: ANY kind of result in qualifying (I assume qualifying not race is your point of reference,
why?) in Germany EITHER WAY will prove NOTHING regarding gains from either of updates packages. For obvious reasons:
- no data to back it up
- mixing human element over one lap in qualifying with gains that were recorded by the team (development, tests, straight line test, Silverstone practice) and approved by lead driver. [Then of course there was silence from the team after qualifying regarding updates, which kind of stops discussion about it]
- logic of separating update packages based on data and possible gains with regard to drivers (leading, second). Even if we're dealing with estimations and results that don't match them, such conclusions as posted above make no sense at all
- all others obvious variables (track, weather and so on)

And not obvious: like familiarity and amount of set up, tweaking and adjusting it takes to make 'device' work based on preferences from driver and obvious differences in that regard. Including past data and experience from tests, qualifying and full race. If you're willing to quantify all that and make a comparison having no information from the team than good luck.

I see a lots of technical data such as telemetry in your reply to my "not-at-all-technical" post.

When someone sweeps you 8-0 (that means 8 times consecutively), that means HE IS BETTER THAN YOU. As soon as they upgraded Grosjean's car, he was faster than Kimi in Q. You can't say "Human factor" just like that when you are talking about elite driver like Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, etc. Also Kimi is known to be driving consistent, robotic lap times.
In previous Q sessions this year Kimi was easily faster than Grosjean. The smallest margin was 0,25 seconds. Considering Silverstone GP, Grosjean's package was at least 0,3 faster.

Lotus is a kind of team which don't bring updates frequently as RBR, but when they do, their updates usually work as espected which is not always the case with Ferrari.

Anyway, I espect Lotus to be strong at Nurburgring because there is only one (Schumacher S) high speed turn. DRD should be giving bigger advantage here if there is any advantage. Spa and Suzuka are probably the worst circuits for such system. I would like if Lotus could remove those ears on top of their cars in case they cancel the DRD project.

[Blackout]

Reducing, reshaping and lowering the outlet in order to Improve airflow towards the beam wing and the 'monkey seat' IMO
So I think the new bodywork + DRD will remain thinner than the old bodywork.
And I wonder if the lower pipe of the DRD is not dispensable with the thinner bodywork... What is it's exact purpose after all ? does the lower DRD pipe help the 'monkey seat'/beam wing create downforce directly/indirectly or does the rounded monkey seat help air extraction from the lower pipe by lowering the pressure behind its outlet ?

Here a comparison between the new bodywork and the old one + DRD
+ a photoshopped new bodywork + DRD

http://www10.pic-upload.de/02.07.13/a689skyjrykz.jpg

Nicely done. +1 from me.

That way it does look doable, but doesn't the pipe defeat the point of tighter bodywork? It just hangs there, blocking airflow to the rear wing.
The big pipe is essentially there to dispense air when the drd isn't stalling. They reroute the airflow to the monkey seat which works like a mini diffuser, delivering a bit of extra downforce. I guess they need that pipe right there, as the "drd mini pipe" is a junction on it. I also suppose they need the big pipe placed that high, else the drd pipe has to be longer, which could affect at which speed the rear wing stalls. It doesn't look like there is a different way; the more efficient 2010 mclaren solution, by adding a shark fin right from to gearbox to the rear wing, is forbidden, as area between the rear wing and a certain length inwards from the rol hoop is prohibited from bodywork. Lotus effectively had to go around that forbidden zone.

Yes, that's for the wing but thanks to the tighter bodywork, the beam wing seems to be much better exposed to the air comming above the sidepods.

The bigger pipe is obviously important. I just meant maybe they could shorten it in order to expose the center of the beam wing even more. But what you say about the dimensions of that bigger pipe and its position etc makes sense.

[iotar__]

But KR had the old front wing and the new front wheels for qualy and race (left) while RG had the old wheels and the new front wing

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.ph ... u=14795526

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 14745.html
The only interesting bit: "That said, we still have a new wing which we haven’t used yet and we still have to try various permutations of the latest upgrades on both cars."

What permutations? They clearly don't visit this thread, noobs. Is it a newer rear wing? Get your magnifying glasses...

[stefan_]

But KR had the old front wing and the new front wheels for qualy and race (left) while RG had the old wheels and the new front wing

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.ph ... u=14795526

That is the same front wing on both cars, only different brake ducts.
I don't remember seeing a new front wing in Great Britain.