Pikes Peak

[Cold Fussion]

Engine was taken from Pescarolo LeMans car (during the 2001-2005 period). At that time it had about 650bhp. Fuel consumption at Pikes Peak during the initial tests was more than 100l/100km, they just managed to reach this value during the last week.

The altitude reading in the onboard video is useless, why did they include it?? Also at 13'' you can see the idiots running in front of the car. You also see how many spectators were REALLY close to the road, which is something that needs to be looked at. Red Bull and all the stupid fuss around the race meant that lots of idiots turned out to the event, and we will end up probably in few years with concrete barriers all around, no spectators except in specific area with grandstands, etc. Time will tell, but I recon if not a bad accident, the organization will do something about that. Finally, at some point you can see his heart bpm at 188. Do you really believe that number? Sounds really high to me.

Other than that, great driving by Loeb! =D>

Are you sure about that? I thought the early Pescarolo cars ran Peugeot v10s, then followed by Judd engines.

[langwadt]

Engine was taken from Pescarolo LeMans car (during the 2001-2005 period). At that time it had about 650bhp. Fuel consumption at Pikes Peak during the initial tests was more than 100l/100km, they just managed to reach this value during the last week.

The altitude reading in the onboard video is useless, why did they include it?? Also at 13'' you can see the idiots running in front of the car. You also see how many spectators were REALLY close to the road, which is something that needs to be looked at. Red Bull and all the stupid fuss around the race meant that lots of idiots turned out to the event, and we will end up probably in few years with concrete barriers all around, no spectators except in specific area with grandstands, etc. Time will tell, but I recon if not a bad accident, the organization will do something about that. Finally, at some point you can see his heart bpm at 188. Do you really believe that number? Sounds really high to me.

Other than that, great driving by Loeb! =D>

Are you sure about that? I thought the early Pescarolo cars ran Peugeot v10s, then followed by Judd engines.

http://www.race-database.com/owner/owne ... =Pescarolo


looks like the Courage C52 and Courage C60 were peugout 3.2, V6 turbo, the judd came later with the pescarolo name

[wesley123]

I am quite sure it received pretty much the whole rear end of the 908. The air intake on the roof and ducting after that give it away.

The 208;


The 2011 908;

[allstaruk08]

the air intake on the roof, the rear wing (which was used on the 908 HDI FAP), the brakes and a modified gearbox to run 4WD are the only things carried over from the 908. you can tell that the 908 has had a lot of influence on this car.

[gixxer_drew]

I don't think it can be beaten unless you undertake a similar effort as Peugeot did. The 208 T16 is a rocket ship with above F1 performance on a hill climb. 695 hp for a 675 kg car is F1 standard, but you actually accelerate faster on the hill because the tubo engine has superior traction by using all four wheels to push the car, which F1 will not do. The car was 100% LMP1 engine technology with zero restrictions on the special chassis. It requires a works team with the technology and experience of Le Mans LMP1 to repeat or beat that performance and then you will have to find a competent driver preferably with rally experience who is prepared to risk his life like Loeb did for this one off. I would say that Porsche might be able to do it in some years with a guy like Kubica or Webber and a $30m budget.

I both agree and disagree. I would separate into two separate categories here. One being the performance of the car itself and the other being the overall performance.

The overall performance of the team was as you would hope for from a great team. If you dont know they are there, they performed flawlessly. The driver is obviously exceptional. The funding was obviously large. This will not be easily duplicated but its certainly not impossible, especially if the event continues growing.

Their recipe was simple. Transplant aero from the LMP car (millions already spent) so it has some decent downforce, put some big power in it, 4wd and one lunatic driver behind the wheel. This is potent and must be respected, however I do not see the car to be the ulitmate. I would start with suspension and aerodynamics. Even if you managed by some miracle to have all those aero bits function at 100% as well as they did on the LMP when transplanted into a different car, you are still looking at a very small downforce value compared to what is possible with no rules whatsoever. I am certain that a purpose designed aero package for hill climb, even by the same group hat did the LMP car could have a lot more downforce. There can be little doubt about this. The diffuser for example is specified in the LMP regs and drag is totally out the window with 800hp and a top speed of 200kmh.

A modern LMP car is designed around extreme aero sensitivities, drag, tight competition inside of a rules box, appearance requirements and others. The peak downforce values documented for something like group C compared to current LMP cars are double. With no rules at all group C era numbers are exceeded "easily" when you are talking about big budgets and no rules.

Tire manufacturers being motivated is probably another place for huge potential increments in performance as well even with no changes to the car. This is in no way taking a swipe at the team or their phenomenal achievement, quite excellent without a doubt.

The point I disagree on is that it will require a similar effort... thats a question of timing. Things tend to get cheaper over time. Good ideas trickle down and people come up with cheaper ways of doing them. Its only a matter of when... so I think its possible for a smaller effort to beat that record in the not too distant future.

[WhiteBlue]

I take your point gixxer. But I did not mean to say it can't be done by let's say Subaru or Kia with a decent budget if they have access to some chassis and engine technology. Such things can be bought. My point is that American local amateurs have no chance in this game. The aerodynamics, the engine, the suspension, the gear box, the software and AWD technology simply add up to resource requirements that are out of the reach of practically anybody except the wealthiest individuals. Didi Mateschitz with his Red Bull billions can do it as Peugeot demonstrated. But who else is out there? Carlos Slim?

Regarding the diffusor I got the impression that the tunnel design with the huge diffusor wasn't the original LMP design of Peugeot. The rear wing was, no doubt about that. But the front splitter, floor, tunnels and diffusor were special design for that car IMO.

[flynfrog]

I take your point gixxer. But I did not mean to say it can't be done by let's say Subaru or Kia with a decent budget if they have access to some chassis and engine technology. Such things can be bought. My point is that American local amateurs have no chance in this game. The aerodynamics, the engine, the suspension, the gear box, the software and AWD technology simply add up to resource requirements that are out of the reach of practically anybody except the wealthiest individuals. Didi Mateschitz with his Red Bull billions can do it as Peugeot demonstrated. But who else is out there? Carlos Slim?

Regarding the diffusor I got the impression that the tunnel design with the huge diffusor wasn't the original LMP design of Peugeot. The rear wing was, no doubt about that. But the front splitter, floor, tunnels and diffusor were special design for that car IMO.

Id give a guy in a used champ car a fair shot. There was nothing that special or innovated about that car for an unlimited class. I wonder how a RWYB class super kart would do.

Good car sure.

Good driver sure.

Good as sliced bread maybe.

[gixxer_drew]

I take your point gixxer. But I did not mean to say it can't be done by let's say Subaru or Kia with a decent budget if they have access to some chassis and engine technology. Such things can be bought. My point is that American local amateurs have no chance in this game. The aerodynamics, the engine, the suspension, the gear box, the software and AWD technology simply add up to resource requirements that are out of the reach of practically anybody except the wealthiest individuals. Didi Mateschitz with his Red Bull billions can do it as Peugeot demonstrated. But who else is out there? Carlos Slim?

Regarding the diffusor I got the impression that the tunnel design with the huge diffusor wasn't the original LMP design of Peugeot. The rear wing was, no doubt about that. But the front splitter, floor, tunnels and diffusor were special design for that car IMO.

Thanks for the open mind.

That is interesting about that diffuser. Looked like rules spec packaging to me. I will have to research more about that.

You are right that it will probably come from a manufacturer. Why though is kind a mystery to me. I know the guys that do all those things, we are all pretty cheap. Its running the project where it always goes to hell.

[andylaurence]

I'm sure people could go faster for less money. Let's be honest, Peugeot compromised by making a Peugeot 208, rather than simply going for the fastest thing on four wheels. A V8 single seater isn't expensive and wouldn't be far off the pace. That's a 450kg car with an engine producing 540bhp and aero that matches a late 90s F1 car. Of course, it's not got a full cage, so wouldn't be allowed up Pikes Peak, but a comparison of performance would be an interesting exercise.

[allstaruk08]

i think the fact they used the 208 shape was a marketing stunt, they're bringing out a new GTI what better marketing stunt could they have done other than winning the Pikes Peak with a 208. i'm sure they could have gone faster with Pikes Peak specific car and not compromised with the shape of the 208 but i dont think that would have done much for their marketing front.

I'm sure people could go faster for less money. Let's be honest, Peugeot compromised by making a Peugeot 208, rather than simply going for the fastest thing on four wheels. A V8 single seater isn't expensive and wouldn't be far off the pace. That's a 450kg car with an engine producing 540bhp and aero that matches a late 90s F1 car. Of course, it's not got a full cage, so wouldn't be allowed up Pikes Peak, but a comparison of performance would be an interesting exercise.

[WhiteBlue]

I'm sure people could go faster for less money. Let's be honest, Peugeot compromised by making a Peugeot 208, rather than simply going for the fastest thing on four wheels. A V8 single seater isn't expensive and wouldn't be far off the pace. That's a 450kg car with an engine producing 540bhp and aero that matches a late 90s F1 car. Of course, it's not got a full cage, so wouldn't be allowed up Pikes Peak, but a comparison of performance would be an interesting exercise.

The chassis shape may have some room for aerodynamic and weight improvements but your hill climb V8 single seater woould need a lot of re work to be competitive. The full chassis would add a lot of weight. The complete aerodynamic package of wings and floor would have to be re done and you would still end up with a car that has sub par power and brakes and no all wheel drive. None of these things can be fixed properly to get you in the vicinity of the 206's performance without spending serious money. In absolute figures you might not be loosing so much but the last minute to match the 206 will be the most expensive. The last 30 s will double , triple or quadruple that. And so it goes on. The more you try to beat the competitor the more you have to specify dedicated engineering work that simply takes huge financial commitment and human resources.
In F1 you can compete at the end of the grid for 10% of what the top end spends and you are maybe 3% away from the lap time. It tells you how bloody difficult the last few % really are.

[andylaurence]

The V8 has the potential for better aero than the 208 and may already be better. It can generate more absolute downforce and less drag at the same time thanks to a much reduced frontal area. That means it needs less power to travel at the same speed, offsetting the difference in outright power. Add in the fact that it's half the weight and it's an interesting proposition as it needs less power to accelerate. I'd wager there wouldn't be that much in it as the aero in this car will be effective in the low speed corners and its weight distribution is optimised for the hairpin bends seen on hillclimbs, lessening the advantage of 4WD. It's Deltawing vs LMP...

Yes, you need a lot of cash to run at the front of an F1 field, but all those cars play to the same rules. Peugeot decided to add in an extra rule to use a less suitable body in the interests of marketing. Without that rule, by your very own statement, you can get within 3% of the lap time for 10% of the cost. If the penalty for their marketing is more than 3%, then it should be possible to go faster for a tenth of the cost, according to your statement.

[MadMatt]

I would think that the most appropriate car for Pikes Peak would be a hillclimb built prototype like Dumas' Norma:



Fit it with a KERS system to help you drive out of the numerous hairpin, and you have a winner. I think an electric addition is a no-brainer at Pikes Peak considering the elevation and loss of power, eventho you can always boost up the engine or get a VTG system as on the 208 T16.

Get to know the racecourse by heart, practice it thousand times on video games as a start, and then don't be afraid to push, go right to the apex of the corners, and Loeb's time should be beaten. You often see the driver "scared" to push. I understand that the margin for error is practically non-existent and that you want to arrive at the top in 1 piece, but in hillclimb racing the situation is even more dangerous. I would honestly prefer to fall down the ravine than hitting a tree sitting 1meter from the road at 180km/h.

So get a car with lots of power, light, very very good slick tyres, a driver who isn't afraid to go 100% (probably a hillclimb racer), race on a dry racecourse, and bang!

[andylaurence]

The Norma is 100kg heavier and 90bhp short of the V8, but I know what you mean. Interestingly, the V8 hillclimb cars were given a bashing last year in the UK by the GWR Raptor, which is a <300kg single seater with masses of downforce and a ~260bhp engine. It set some outright hill records in the process. Add lightness...

[langwadt]

The Norma is 100kg heavier and 90bhp short of the V8, but I know what you mean. Interestingly, the V8 hillclimb cars were given a bashing last year in the UK by the GWR Raptor, which is a <300kg single seater with masses of downforce and a ~260bhp engine. It set some outright hill records in the process. Add lightness...

now that it is all paved I'm thinking fan car like the Chaparral 2J / Brabham BT46 B

no drag from wings, loads of down force regardless of speed and/or slip angle