2013 Hungarian GP - Hungaroring

raymondu999 · Post 28 Jul 2013, 03:11

raymondu999 · Post 28 Jul 2013, 03:12

Mr Alcatraz · Post 28 Jul 2013, 06:11

rifrafs2kees wrote:
Juzh wrote:Pole lap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrPhV5pRDK0

He clearly missed apexes on numerous corners and that is not the fastest way around the track no matter how you spin it. He is fast, no doubt about it, but why do people praise this lap as some kind of miracle is beyond me. If you want to see real fast lap around hungaroring you should check 2010 pole, much more impressive than this.
People think it's a great lap because it just is. Unless the vast majority of us duped ourselves into thinking the red bull was the stronger car going into quali this weekend. Race car drivers aren't computerized robots...for them everything hinges on feel....and that imposes limitations on how much time one can spend on the absolute limit of static friction..and on the rare occasion, the fringes of kinetic friction. A computer can better approach this limit due to its sheer processing power but even then ABS systems, which have been in existence for decades, criss cross this fine line as frequently as possible to achieve some semblance of riding the limit because riding the limit is practically impossible. So the idea that a driver stays on the absolute limit(combined max of linear, rotational and angular accelerations....all these being a dissection of available traction) for a considerable amount of time let alone for the whole delta time it takes to position the car for the apex, mug it and exit is a myth. Sometimes one clips the apex at the expense of acceleration or vice versa. Some tracks by the nature of their turns reward speed over line precision. Hungary is just one such track as many of the turns on this track have little fluidity to them, coupled with attitude changes, and as such being overly concerned with hitting apexs very often can be slower considering the limitations of our mental reserves and motor skills(if you don't believe me, watch Senna's the pole laps..many weren't spatially perfect but rather, he concerned himself with his strength..which was criss crossing the limits of adhesion more so than his competitors could and so people often got the feeling he would crash any moment). On a track like monaco where precision is more important, you see people very often hit the apexes and they are rewarded because if you find yourself not well position for the next turn, you have to send the car into a combination of accelerations that is impossible to achieve. Ever wondered why some tracks don't bring much differences in laps times even when the drivers are obviously using different lines? yet those same drivers stick to a rigid line on another track?

So it's all about how one uses space and time. If a guy misses the apex by 2 inches, it's not necessarily over because because we don't know how high a speed others maintain through that spot.

And I might hypothesize the following. Ever wondered why jenson button and hamilton both said they want similar things in a car yet they drive so differently? Mr Button, whether due to his natural ability or through training, is more acutely aware of car position so in trying to arrive at just the perfect point and direction he desires, any car behaviour that isn't predictable or linear throws him off. So then we hear such things as too much understeer..oversteer..little grip. He is not making excuses. What he is trying to do on the track simply requires very predictable car behaviour. When this is bang on then he becomes unbeatable because his lap time doesn't come from zigzagging across the limit, a trait that has the inherent disadvantage of consuming tire life. Subsequently, he is able to maintain fast laps for longer periods. On the other hand, hamilton has a bias for higher speed through a corner which consequently means many more moments over the limit...so then you see things like momentary opposite lock and slides. Brazil of 2012 is a good example. Before we consider what happened one must take into account that the ratio of static friction to kinetic friction varies with track and tire conditions. This is easily intuitive in the sense that a slide in the dry is easily arrested whereas one in the wet has a higher potential for doom...Back to brazil .The track gets some drizzle and he starts twitching all over the place because ability to cool it down a tad bit in order to stay on the desired course is one he doesn't have. And so button was quicker in that phase because the ratio of static to kinetic friction available was much higher(combination of wet track and wrong tires) so every slide is amplified and he suffers. You throw in the new intermediates or wets and then usual balance between kinetic and static friction is once again a reality and then hamilton is fast again.

So apexes aren't everything and speed isn't either...It's the sum of both that matter. For humans, maximizing one ends up hurting the other

Excellent post. "The Boss" has 3 poles on the trot, that deserves recognition (and I'm not known as a big Hamilton Honk by those that have been on this forum around the time, or before I joined but I've become a Hamiltonian.
But I digress Vettel from Zo' to Kimi, or Rogro, hamilton or webber and Rosberg, might even get a surprise from Felipe baby. or Jense!!

Mr Alcatraz · Post 28 Jul 2013, 07:29

JJ Cale died today;

WhiteBlue · Post 28 Jul 2013, 08:01

turbof1 wrote:If I am correct, it means they have to replace the floor, which means start from the back of the grid.

Though if Lotus can prove it is a broken piece, I think they are just allowed to replace the part with a similar one, without dropping back on the grid, provided the replaced part does get through the tests. Sounds like force majeur to me.

According to Joe Saward it was a stay of the floor that broke. Lotus could produce telemetry showing the corner where the car hit the curb and broke it. Seems like a correct decision by the stewards. I can imagine that they will test the car again after the repair and they should find no problem.

Harsha · Post 28 Jul 2013, 08:12

rifrafs2kees wrote: So apexes aren't everything and speed isn't either...It's the sum of both that matter. For humans, maximizing one ends up hurting the other

Probably Hamilton has something to say this " “Fernando, for me, is more accurate. He hits all the apexes [the perfect racing line through a corner]. Sebastian misses four apexes on a single lap and still goes quickest. He goes off and he still goes quickest. And I think ‘Holy crap, I couldn’t do that lap even if I was on the limit’. His car is just that far ahead of everyone else’s". Which opposes your point some what. Whom should i believe. I will go with Lewis as he may know a bit more than us.
So if he thinks Vettel has a car which is much quicker than rest even he misses Apexes and put it pole. He must also agree the Car he has now also was far ahead of the rest.
And im not taking anything from Lewis Skills and his pole lap. But its not Exceptional lap. Its a Good lap on a Very good Car.

ringo · Post 28 Jul 2013, 09:36

The Lap was flawless, he himself said he probably had a few tenths left in it, however it was technically clean. It was not as sloppy as some of Seb's laps.
It's possible to be error free and still not push the car hard. He said he had wheel spin, so i guess he was controlling that.

He stole P1 today, i don't think mercedes were expecting it because of the tyre situation and that's why the lap was exceptional.

iotar__ · Post 28 Jul 2013, 10:18

All the drama about another fake and meaningless Merc pole. "Best qualifying car". There's no such thing as "qualifying car". There are good qualifying results that mean little after bad races. Good thing that after ten laps nobody will remember.

- let's hope Vettel is not leading after the first corner
- Webber may have some fun starting from tenth on fresh softs (?)
- McLaren drivers expect overtaking may be possible (Sky):
JB "It's not the easiest circuit to overtake on but I have a feeling that if we have a 56 degree circuit temperature, it's not going to be a straightforward race. I think we'll see some overtaking,"
SP "I think tomorrow we'll have a very interesting race, a bit similar to Bahrain - the same temperatures and with the double DRS zones and different strategies we're going to see,"
- how long will softs last, five-eight laps again? At the top start, pitstops and strategy will decide it,
- Forecast for the race: 40 degrees and no clouds

Jonnycraig · Post 28 Jul 2013, 10:32

raymondu999 wrote:About dirty/clean side, I was also harping on about that in past years, but it seems that since last year they've been cleaning the circuit. Dirty and clean sides were pretty much even last year.

As said above, in the support races people have been getting away fine from the 'dirty' side of the grid. Carlos Sainz has made 4 & 3 places from the GP3 starts. Obviously they're not putting as much power down as the F1 cars but its seemingly not too bad.

WhiteBlue · Post 28 Jul 2013, 10:36

I disagree. Qualifying shows the potential of a car and as such the Merc this year is not bad. I agree that due to their problems with tyre management Merc have not been able to unlock the potential most of the time. But that used to be also true for Red Bull and they seem to have cracked the problem particularly with the new "old" tyres. So there remains a strong possibility that Merc will also surprise a few people at some stage of the season.

Cocles · Post 28 Jul 2013, 11:27

iotar__ wrote:All the drama about another fake and meaningless Merc pole. "Best qualifying car". There's no such thing as "qualifying car".

No, but there is such a thing as, "Currently 2nd place in the Constructor's Championship." Yes, you're the guy trying to convince everybody that the car currently leading everyone save Red Bull in the Constructor's championship is somehow invalid for pole position.

Bomber_Pilot · Post 28 Jul 2013, 11:38

Jonnycraig wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:About dirty/clean side, I was also harping on about that in past years, but it seems that since last year they've been cleaning the circuit. Dirty and clean sides were pretty much even last year.
As said above, in the support races people have been getting away fine from the 'dirty' side of the grid. Carlos Sainz has made 4 & 3 places from the GP3 starts. Obviously they're not putting as much power down as the F1 cars but its seemingly not too bad.

They cleaned the track yesterday evening.

henra · Post 28 Jul 2013, 11:41

stefan_ wrote:All this praising for Hamilton makes me sick. Get yourself together, people.

Big +1!
The level of Fanboyism here is really amazing.

What is all this hubub about?! It was a very good lap. He is on pole. End of story.

SectorOne · Post 28 Jul 2013, 11:46

If people are fanboys for being impressed by Hamilton´s lap i guess that makes Vettel a fanboy too.

AnthonyG · Post 28 Jul 2013, 12:21

Anyone have a video of Grosjean's lap? I think it should be one of the cleanest (technicaly) of the top 5.

2013 Hungarian GP - Hungaroring

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Hamilton secures first win with Mercedes 28 Jul 2013