2013 Hungarian GP - Hungaroring

[LionKing]

http://i.imgur.com/LgsK0wU.jpg

But as this photo clearly shows, Lewis' line was compromised due to webber being there (clearly shown by the difference in lines between Lewis and the Sauber.

We ALL know that if your car has atlease 2 wheels touching a white line, your classed as on the track (Grosjean's incident with Massa clarifies this)

Lewis left enough room for Mark to keep 2 wheels on the track, let alone the white line.

Webber just chose not to run over the kerb, (his problem)

Webbers choices were, Stay on the circuit (2 wheels , as stated by the rules), Back off and concede the place, Or swing out wider than the kerb and tuck back in behind Lewis.

But leaving enough room means leaving at least a "car's width".

You can not squeeze your competitor out of track then say look he still did not leave the circuit completely.

Btw this is Alonso/Vettel Monza 2012:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcskv1FeaRM

[komninosm]

http://i.imgur.com/I7gzWcs.jpg

I don't understand this diagram.
x axis is laps
what is y axis? seconds compared to who?

It's a bit tricky to explain. I'll try my best, nontheless:

y-axis represents the winner's cumulativ race average.
Horizontal Line: Average Lap time of race winner.
The lines show cumulative time lost/gained.
The incline of the curve shows the actual lap time compared to the average lap time.
Positive angle: Lap was faster than Lewis' race average. E.g. 3s gained in 5 laps. So These 3 laps were each 0,6s faster than the average lap time of Lewis over the whole race.

Thanks, I knew it was comparing to some sort of ideal, but not exactly what. I understand it now.

[Diosfenix]

Highligths of first half F1 2013 season http://wp.me/p2iB5Y-zB [VIDEO]

[Emerson.F]

FULL Qualifying Q 1,2&3 as it happened at Hungary

[beelsebob]

FULL Qualifying Q 1,2&3 as it happened at Hungary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8zysld5Fpc

Yup, that's not gonna get taken down any time soon.

[Emerson.F]

FULL Qualifying Q 1,2&3 as it happened at Hungary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8zysld5Fpc

Yup, that's not gonna get taken down any time soon.

In 5,4,3,2....

BTW the look on Sebs face....Priceless =D>

[komninosm]

Highligths of first half F1 2013 season http://wp.me/p2iB5Y-zB [VIDEO]

00:56 wow that tire was badly flatspotted.
hmm was that tire punctured? it seems to have sidewall issues too.

[SectorOne]

Just had a look at the sector times and both Hamilton and Vettel had a first, second and fifth place.

[NathanOlder]

http://i.imgur.com/LgsK0wU.jpg

But as this photo clearly shows, Lewis' line was compromised due to webber being there (clearly shown by the difference in lines between Lewis and the Sauber.

We ALL know that if your car has atlease 2 wheels touching a white line, your classed as on the track (Grosjean's incident with Massa clarifies this)

Lewis left enough room for Mark to keep 2 wheels on the track, let alone the white line.

Webber just chose not to run over the kerb, (his problem)

Webbers choices were, Stay on the circuit (2 wheels , as stated by the rules), Back off and concede the place, Or swing out wider than the kerb and tuck back in behind Lewis.

But leaving enough room means leaving at least a "car's width".

You can not squeeze your competitor out of track then say look he still did not leave the circuit completely.

Btw this is Alonso/Vettel Monza 2012:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcskv1FeaRM

I agree with what your saying, but I'd imagine it has a huge deal to do with what your pushing the other driver onto. All these tarmac run offs make it acceptable. If there were a gravel trap there instead, it may have been different

[Just_a_fan]

But leaving enough room means leaving at least a "car's width".

You can not squeeze your competitor out of track then say look he still did not leave the circuit completely.

The "car's width requirement" applies where a driver moves across the track to defend the line and then moves back to take the line through the corner. In the situation with Webber, Hamilton had the line all the way through the corner and Webber tried to stay with him around the outside. By choosing to go around the outside, Webber set himself up to run out of room on the exit. That's why he didn't complain about it - and remember that Webber isn't one to keep quiet if he thinks he's been treated incorrectly on or off track. He's a hard-but-fair racer and he must have been happy that he'd been treated correctly by Hamilton.

[LionKing]

But leaving enough room means leaving at least a "car's width".

You can not squeeze your competitor out of track then say look he still did not leave the circuit completely.

The "car's width requirement" applies where a driver moves across the track to defend the line and then moves back to take the line through the corner. In the situation with Webber, Hamilton had the line all the way through the corner and Webber tried to stay with him around the outside. By choosing to go around the outside, Webber set himself up to run out of room on the exit. That's why he didn't complain about it - and remember that Webber isn't one to keep quiet if he thinks he's been treated incorrectly on or off track. He's a hard-but-fair racer and he must have been happy that he'd been treated correctly by Hamilton.

If that is the case than why was Vettel penalized at Monza at a long high speed curve when he was in front and inside???

That is what the rule book also says:
"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted."

Secondly,if you look at the pictures Iotar provided and the progression (just look at the cars in the first few frames) they could have easily taken the corner together had Hamilton permitted it. A little bit right steer adjustment from Lewis. But he chose to run wide and his trajectory meant either Webber take measure to avoid or he was going to be hit by Lewis car from side.

[sennafan24]

If that is the case than why was Vettel penalized at Monza at a long high speed curve when he was in front and inside???

That is what the rule book also says:
"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted."

Secondly,if you look at the pictures Iotar provided and the progression (just look at the cars in the first few frames) they could have easily taken the corner together had Hamilton permitted it. A little bit right steer adjustment from Lewis. But he chose to run wide and his trajectory meant either Webber take measure to avoid or he was going to be hit by Lewis car from side.

You might be right, but would you be saying all this if Vettel had done the same thing on the way to victory, or would you be instead concentrating on him outracing the rest of the field? I think the latter.

[GrizzleBoy]

But leaving enough room means leaving at least a "car's width".

You can not squeeze your competitor out of track then say look he still did not leave the circuit completely.

The "car's width requirement" applies where a driver moves across the track to defend the line and then moves back to take the line through the corner. In the situation with Webber, Hamilton had the line all the way through the corner and Webber tried to stay with him around the outside. By choosing to go around the outside, Webber set himself up to run out of room on the exit. That's why he didn't complain about it - and remember that Webber isn't one to keep quiet if he thinks he's been treated incorrectly on or off track. He's a hard-but-fair racer and he must have been happy that he'd been treated correctly by Hamilton.

If that is the case than why was Vettel penalized at Monza at a long high speed curve when he was in front and inside???

That is what the rule book also says:
"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted."

Secondly,if you look at the pictures Iotar provided and the progression (just look at the cars in the first few frames) they could have easily taken the corner together had Hamilton permitted it. A little bit right steer adjustment from Lewis. But he chose to run wide and his trajectory meant either Webber take measure to avoid or he was going to be hit by Lewis car from side.

The difference is most likely to do with the "hindering".

Squeezing a car into a sea of unlimited tarmac is not the same as squeezing someone onto dirt and grass, which is actually a dangerous surface for slick F1 tyres.

[LionKing]

Double post...

[LionKing]

The difference is most likely to do with the "hindering".

Squeezing a car into a sea of unlimited tarmac is not the same as squeezing someone onto dirt and grass, which is actually a dangerous surface for slick F1 tyres.

I think the arguments are getting a bit desperate.

Is it more likely that Alonso's accident would have been a worse one? Very likely so. But does the rule specify anthing like hindering only at a dangerous place at all? Of course it wouldn't. The rules are there to ensure fair competition at all times and in this case preventing drivers pushing others out of the track and gain an advantage.

Vettel could have been penalized more severely had the incident ended differently. Like Grosjean getting a race ban due to the extent of the accident he caused and that he had prior. Running a red light in an intersection already has a certain fine. If someone does that in a blind intersection and ends up killing another then he will be prosecuted much more further, to the extent of involuntary manslaughter. If he doesn't hurt anyone it still does not exonerate running the light.