2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Holm86]

So what if you wanted to use a planetary gear set with an electric clutch?

I don't see a problem with that. Not regulation wise. As long as the ratio is fixed.

[langwadt]

has anyone considered putting the mgu-h in between the turbine and compressor? i.e. turbine at the back close to the mandated exhaust outlet, compressor at the front close to the intercooler and away from the hot turbine

gear and clutch on the mgu would be interesting if needed and maybe the turbine is too big to fit in front of the engine
so the whole assembly would be too tall if the compressor has to be in the valley

[piast9]

Then there is only two options. Rewrite the regulation on sensory tolerances or find another supplier.

It is a bit late for that I think. It also may be a general problem to measure such uneven, pulse flow with 0,5% accurracy with any sensor.

[Holm86]

Then there is only two options. Rewrite the regulation on sensory tolerances or find another supplier.

It is a bit late for that I think. It also may be a general problem to measure such uneven, pulse flow with 0,5% accurracy with any sensor.

Then what would you do?? Say the secret magic words that makes the sensors more accurate???

And why is it a pulse flow?? I would think the flow is pretty smooth and constant.

[wuzak]

Fixed ratio means that a gearing is allowed. I doesn't have to be 1:1. It could be 1:2, 1:4, 1:5 whatever you like.
Just means that only one gearing is allowed.

And may be clutched just means you choose weather you want a clutch or not.

So what if you wanted to use a planetary gear set with an electric clutch?

So long as the planetary gear set has only one ratio (no gear changes) and the electric clutch does not slip at any point other than the fractions of a second required to engage or disengage.

Btw my understanding is that electric clutches must slip to operate. They cannot be locked.

[wuzak]

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

This excludes the dualboost compressor. It also likely kicks out axial turbines since that would be best used in a multi stage configuration. Although if you run very high backpressure, an axial turbine might not be a bad choice or no?

One of the major benefits of the dualboost unit is its low inertia, helping it spool quick. This will not be much of an issue with the MGUH attached.

The dual boost could be allowed if the double sided compressor is a one piece unit. My reading of that regulation suggests that if the compressor is made up of two single sided compressors mounted back to back it may be illegal.

A single two sided compressor may make the assembly difficult to put together.

[wuzak]

Harvesting from gathered energy could became weaker (less inertia, less stored rotational energy)?

I don't agree with this. It all depends on how you harvest the energy. You are right that with less mass you can harvest less kinetic energy. But this is not about harvesting kinetic energy. You want to harvest waste energy.

The way i see this working is that you use the MGU-H as a harvester when maximum boost is reached. You use the MGU-H as a generator to control the boost. This is why some of us including me thinks that wastegates are redundant.

So at 10.000 rpm when max fuel is allowed this rpm should be when max boost is as well. From 10.000-15.000 boost should drop to compensate for the increase in air flow the engine creates itself when increasing revs. So you brake the turbine with the MGU-H and harvest the excess energy. The rotating mass only has something to say in the time between to fixed numbers. ect. when you brake the turbine from 125.000 rpms to 100.000 rpms. The time it takes for the turbine to get from speed A to B is the time where you would be able to harvest more energy with higher mass. But i dont think the MGU-H will be used to brake the turbine like that. It will be used to maintain a surtan rpm or slightly reduce rpm after 10.000 rpm engine speed.

The turbine will, most probably, be producing more shaft power than the compressor can use well before 10,500rpm. Thus the MGUH should be generating at least some power before then.

I'm not sure if that was what were saying, though.

And I am with you - wastegates will be redundant.

[ringo]

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

This excludes the dualboost compressor. It also likely kicks out axial turbines since that would be best used in a multi stage configuration. Although if you run very high backpressure, an axial turbine might not be a bad choice or no?

One of the major benefits of the dualboost unit is its low inertia, helping it spool quick. This will not be much of an issue with the MGUH attached.

The dual boost could be allowed if the double sided compressor is a one piece unit. My reading of that regulation suggests that if the compressor is made up of two single sided compressors mounted back to back it may be illegal.

A single two sided compressor may make the assembly difficult to put together.

The rules are against 2 stage compression. I don't think the dual boost is 2 stage. It looks like parallel compression.

[wuzak]

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

This excludes the dualboost compressor. It also likely kicks out axial turbines since that would be best used in a multi stage configuration. Although if you run very high backpressure, an axial turbine might not be a bad choice or no?

One of the major benefits of the dualboost unit is its low inertia, helping it spool quick. This will not be much of an issue with the MGUH attached.

The dual boost could be allowed if the double sided compressor is a one piece unit. My reading of that regulation suggests that if the compressor is made up of two single sided compressors mounted back to back it may be illegal.

A single two sided compressor may make the assembly difficult to put together.

The rules are against 2 stage compression. I don't think the dual boost is 2 stage. It looks like parallel compression.

The rules say "sole single stage compressor". As in one compressor. The dual boost uses a double sided impeller. If that impeller is made up of two pieces it may be argued that there are two compressors.

[Holm86]

has anyone considered putting the mgu-h in between the turbine and compressor?

This has also been discussed here before. And yes i do think that most of us believe this is the way to go.

[piast9]

And why is it a pulse flow?? I would think the flow is pretty smooth and constant.

Aren't these sensors placed between the pump and the injector?

[Holm86]

And why is it a pulse flow?? I would think the flow is pretty smooth and constant.

Aren't these sensors placed between the pump and the injector?

There is a feed pump, a high pressure pump and then the injector. The sensor is placed in the tank after the feed pump.
The flow from the feed pump to the high pressure pump is pretty constant and even. Not pulsating.

Though vibrations, heat and geforces makes it a harsh environment for the sensor.

[wuzak]

has anyone considered putting the mgu-h in between the turbine and compressor?

This has also been discussed here before. And yes i do think that most of us believe this is the way to go.

I think it depends on where the compressor is.

If the compressor is behind the engine, then I think the arrangement Renault have shown, with the MGUH ahead of the compressor and in the vee, is better.

But if the compressor is at the front of the engine, then I agree that having the MGUH between the turbine and compressor is the way to go.

[Abarth]

What I find excptionally strange are the regulation about turbine axis orientation and position, and, much more so, about the regulation that the exhaust has to be at the outside of the V. It would make for neat packagings if the exhaust could be in the V inside.

Anyway, reading the regulations I feel there is almost no freedom in designing the ICE. It makes me wonder if the constructors where afraid of allowing too much freedom and therefore maybe to much advantage of one over the another. And anyone felt the risk happening this.

This whole thing to me is down to Energy Storage technology and clever software development. Charge / discharge of ES, reducing turbine lag when reaccelerating etc., all this will require clever "strategies", maybe different from track to track, maintaining good driveability.
I wonder whether we as observers from the outside will ever be able to gather some insight what the teams are doing wrt this.

[piast9]

There is a feed pump, a high pressure pump and then the injector. The sensor is placed in the tank after the feed pump.
The flow from the feed pump to the high pressure pump is pretty constant and even. Not pulsating.

As far as I recall the previous discussions one sensor is going to be after the feed pump as you say but also there are going to be a sensors before the injectors. But I may remember it wrong or the regulations changed since then.