hollowBallistix wrote:Considering ALL the Renault engine cars had issues, the route cause is probably down to Renault & not Red Bull, didn't one constructor have issues installing the engine because it didn't fit ?
Renault appears to made a mistake somewhere along the development of the new V6. It's anyone's guess as to how long it will take Renault to fix the problems.
Lotus knew there were problems with the power plant, now it's a race to see if Renault can fix their issues or if Red Bull need to compromise their design for the engine..
That had more to do with money saving more than likely, than knowing the Renault engine would have major problems.
Shakeman wrote:I think we can say two things, Renault has problems and that they are exacerbated by the RB team's installation.
Newey likes to package the engine and other hardware as tightly as possible. The KERS and Alternator issues Red Bull had probably had an element of things being packed together too tightly to allow proper airflow around them to keep them withing their normal operating temperature ranges.
There's a lot of people saying it'll be an easy fix and just a bit of moving around is required, I don't subscribe to this. But RB are not in the habit of leaving free space under their engine covers, no team does. So if things have to move, everything has to move like a sliding block puzzle. I know pipes can be extended or shortened or rerouted but still it must be a monumental undertaking to get it right and not compromise the CoG and aero philosophy of the car.
If there is not a simple fix, then it's probably going to mean redesigning the guts of the car to reposition components and to make sure they stay within their normal temperature tolerances. If that's the case most of the aero will likely need to be rethought.
Crabbia wrote:My two cents...
I dont think this was a design error by the redbull team and i dont think the Renault engine is or will be terrible. it may run a little hotter than the MB or ferrari, but that alone is not what i think happened to RB.
Newey appears to have packaged the new power train too tightly and Renault have mucked up the development, meaning the computer models and dyno results of the powertrain were inaccurate leading to Red Bull having critical problems with keeping the ERS and electronic control systems functional.
i think what happened is there was a mis-communication from Renault to the teams about the heat requirements needed for the ES. We aren't talking about simple one dimensional numbers here. Renault wont say to the team, you need to dissipate X amount of joules in heat per second. This information would be complex mathematical models of how and when and where on the ES the heat builds up. Possibly Renault didn't report correctly ( or its report wasn't understood correctly) on concentrated "hot spots" on the surface of the ES or other components.
Red Bull and Renault by all accounts were happy with the designs on both sides. It's only when they hit the track that they discovered they'd got it wrong. What you have to keep in mind is that Red Bull worked very closely with Renault on the new power trains as Red Bull is pretty much Renault's works team given the nature of the deal between the two. It's a monumental screw up. Newey will figure the cooling issues out on the RB10 eventually (took him most of 1994 to get the Williams into a driveable state after the FIA banned the active suspension system). Renault appears to have had a problem with the data it's gathered from the dyno and the track. While Newey probably pushed the new power train beyond what it's capable of handling. And remember the other Renault teams did manage to do more running than Red Bull. Pretty embarrassing for Red Bull if they have to go along Caterham's side pod style design to aid with airflow within the car to keep things cool.
onewingedangel wrote:Not to mention Mercedes and Ferrari and to a lesser extent Honda are not going to want their works teams shown up by a Red Bull.
All the manufacturers (bar Renault) will want to beat Red Bull. Honda will be no different to Mercedes and Ferrari on that score.
If the Renault engine proves a dud and their relationship breaks down I bet Red Bull will be making enquiries with Nissan, and if unsucessful then VW, BMW, Ford, Jaguar etc. about co-financing a new engine.
Cosworth has a V6 power train ready to go. However I doubt Red Bull and Renault will split, they'll struggle through together into sorting the issues out with the aim to get back on the winning bandwagon they've been on for the last few seasons. That's assuming the RB10 is one of Newey's less than stellar cars i.e. Fast but Fragile or a complete dogs dinner. Anyway with the warmer temperatures at the next test, the other power trains might struggle. Who knows.
? That it has much bigger concessions for cooling than all the other cars on this year's grid.