Red Bull exceed fuel flow limit, Ricciardo DSQ at Australian GP

[stuartpengs]

I thought there was far too much reverb, and all the midtones were clipped. This was an issue last year at some tracks; it sounds like the inside of a Pringles tin.

Ah OK, I definitely need a new TV then.

[oT v1]

what exactly are Lotus allowed to do to their PU to improve from 19 DNFs this season? does the freeze cover Kers 'bits'?

[kooleracer]

I the indycar engines and the new F1 engines are evenly loud but the Indcars sound much better on TV. FOM needs to get some quality microphones and place them near the engine and not on top of the airbox. That explains to whole drama now, we are not hearing the engine but hearing the airbox sucking air in and the engine on the background. I don't know how indycar does it, but FOM might have a look at their setup and change the current setup ASAP. Because on track the F1 cars are louder then Indycars. But on TV they sound worse compared to the indycars. Bernie & Co should stop complaining and actually start doing something. The engine formula is not going to change so maybe the should change their attitude and improve the experience for the fans watching at home. A lot of fans have never heard the V8 live other wise we would have a lot of complains about the during the V8 era. Because the V8 sounded so much louder in real life then on TV.

[idfx]

Top speeds of cars?

[kooleracer]

Top speeds of cars?

F1 is so poor on providing the public with data. Its ridiculous, if look at MotoGP. All the data is giving lap times, sector times, top-speeds, you just go to website click results and you can find data from every race. F1 is so secretive its getting f-ing annoying. The only info the give is the order of the session and the gap between the drivers..... why should fans pay for an app to get basic information that other series are giving away for free.....

[thomin]

I found a nice summary of the Ricciardo/Red Bull drama on this site:
http://www.motorsport-magazin.com/forme ... ifikation/

I will translate the relevant parts:
1) For 2014 there is a fuel flow limit of 100kg/h at revs higher than 10500rpm
2) The 2014 turbo engines have direct injection, so the teams can accurately measure/regulate the fuel flow at the point of injection.
3) But they may use different components, so in order to guarantee fairness, FIA has mandated a common fuel flow meter (FFM), an additional sensor that monitors fuel flow before it is injected into the engine.
4) Unlike the team's sensors, the FFM can only monitor fuel flow, not regulate it.
5) During FP1, Red Bull noticed a change in Ricciardo's FFM readings. At first they were different then later on.
6) During FP2, the FFM provided the same readings as during the second half of FP1.
7) For Saturday, Red Bull exchanged the FFM.
8) That new FFM however turned out to be faulty.
9) In the meantime, the FIA checked the old FFM and found that while it indeed showed variations, they were all well within the tolerance range.
10) The FIA then ordered Red Bull to replace the new FFM with the old FFM again for Sunday.
11) A technical delegate of the FIA informed Red Bull that they would have to apply a correction factor to their own sensors (NOT the FFM!) in the injection system in order to comply with the rules, as the FFM monitors a slightly higher fuel flow than the Renault sensors. Since the Renault sensors are responsible for the ultimate amount of fuel that is injected, they needed to be adjusted according to comparative measurements of the Renault sensors and the FFM made in FP1 and FP2.
12) Red Bull chose not to do so as they believed that their own readings were more accurate.
13) During the race, the FIA again asked Red Bull to adjust their fuel flow settings as it was still above the allowed max.
14) Red Bull again chose not to do so.
15) Throughout the race, the FFM provided the same kind of data as in FP2 and the second half of FP1, i.e. it worked reliably without fluctuations.

[hardingfv32]

11) A technical delegate of the FIA informed Red Bull that they would have to apply a correction factor to their own sensors (NOT the FFM!) in the injection system in order to comply with the rules, as the FFM monitors a slightly higher fuel flow than the Renault sensors. Since the Renault sensors are responsible for the ultimate amount of fuel that is injected, they needed to be adjusted.

This is BS. The team knows what the flow sensor is reading and what the engine is actually using. You acknowledge the difference and do not apply a correction factor to make the two numbers equal. What would be the point?

There is no Renault fuel flow sensor. Fuel flow is calculated based on what the fuel injectors are using. How often they are firing, for how long, etc. There is no sensor that can be adjusted to make the engine's actual flow 'look' like the FIA flow sensor.

Brian

[djos]

I thought there was far too much reverb, and all the midtones were clipped. This was an issue last year at some tracks; it sounds like the inside of a Pringles tin.

Ah OK, I definitely need a new TV then.

I have a 12k sound system and they didn't sound anything like they do in the flesh!

Frankly FOM sound is terrible and many of the youtube videos of the the 2014 cars sound better!

[beelsebob]

11) A technical delegate of the FIA informed Red Bull that they would have to apply a correction factor to their own sensors (NOT the FFM!) in the injection system in order to comply with the rules, as the FFM monitors a slightly higher fuel flow than the Renault sensors. Since the Renault sensors are responsible for the ultimate amount of fuel that is injected, they needed to be adjusted.

This is BS. The team knows what the flow sensor is reading and what the engine is actually using.

No, not what the flow sensor is reading and what the engine is actually using... What the flow sensor is reading, and what a different, non-official flow sensor is reading. In these circumstances you absolutely do tell the team "correct your flow sensor this much so that it matches the official one".

There is no Renault fuel flow sensor. Fuel flow is calculated based on what the fuel injectors are using.

Which is measured... by a flow sensor in the injectors. They don't magically know how much they're using, they have sensors.

How often they are firing, for how long, etc. There is no sensor that can be adjusted to make the engine's actual flow 'look' like the FIA flow sensor.

Okay, you truly do just believe they're magical then?

[thomin]

11) A technical delegate of the FIA informed Red Bull that they would have to apply a correction factor to their own sensors (NOT the FFM!) in the injection system in order to comply with the rules, as the FFM monitors a slightly higher fuel flow than the Renault sensors. Since the Renault sensors are responsible for the ultimate amount of fuel that is injected, they needed to be adjusted.

This is BS. The team knows what the flow sensor is reading and what the engine is actually using. You acknowledge the difference and do not apply a correction factor to make the two numbers equal. What would be the point?

There is no Renault fuel flow sensor. Fuel flow is calculated based on what the fuel injectors are using. How often they are firing, for how long, etc. There is no sensor that can be adjusted to make the engine's actual flow 'look' like the FIA flow sensor.

Brian

This comes down to me compressing things I guess. You're absolutely right with everything you say. But it's not in disagreement with my summary. I tried to explain that the Renault sensor and the Renault injector are the same thing (see point #2). Maybe I failed, but I didn't want to make it too long and I thought it was obvious.

Also, The point of the correction factor is not to make the numbers equal, but to make the injectors comply with the rules according to the FFM numbers. The numbers from the Renault engine don't need to "look" like those from the FFM, instead the injectors need to be adjusted in such a way that fuel flow according to the FIA sensor doesn't go above 100kg/h.

Say for example that the FFM shows a fuel flow of 100kg/h at the point where the Renault injectors only say 96kg/h. Then the limit on the injectors needs to be reduced from 100kg/h to 96kg/h in order to comply with the rules. All the teams did do exactly that, only Red Bull refused to do so and therefore ran consistently above 100kg/h according to the FFM, which is the yardstick all teams have to go by.

[foxmulder_ms]

These points make it quite clear:

B) That although the sensor showed a difference in readings between runs in P1, it remains the homologated and required sensor against which the team is obliged to measure their fuel flow, unless given permission by the FIA to do
otherwise.

D) That regardless of the team’s assertion that the sensor was fault, it is not within their discretion to run a different fuel flow measurement method without the permission of the FIA.

It doesn't even matter what the "real" flow is. "Flow" is the "flow measured by the FIA device" which is the same for every team. So RedBull run on more fuel flow time to time than other teams which makes the disqualification perfectly reasonable.

[Mui]

Top speeds of cars?

F1 is so poor on providing the public with data. Its ridiculous, if look at MotoGP. All the data is giving lap times, sector times, top-speeds, you just go to website click results and you can find data from every race. F1 is so secretive its getting f-ing annoying. The only info the give is the order of the session and the gap between the drivers..... why should fans pay for an app to get basic information that other series are giving away for free.....

Here you go mate. FIA publishes the times after the race. Don't go to f1.com for race information as they've never published full information. You can get everything apart from sector times for every lap though best sector times are available.

http://www.fia.com/championship/fia-for ... -documents

click on timing information in the drop down menu.

[djos]

It doesn't even matter what the "real" flow is. "Flow" is the "flow measured by the FIA device" which is the same for every team. So RedBull run on more fuel flow time to time than other teams which makes the disqualification perfectly reasonable.

How the F'k is any engine manufacturer supposed to get the max power and efficiency from their engines if the goal posts move every time they put a different FFM in their car?

Horner is 100% correct, the sensors being used are immature and seriously need work!

This is like the in car SC, Yellow flag & blue flag indicator system all over again, FIA just can't seem to implement systems properly first go! The difference being this time there are championship points on the line!

[erikejw]

Maybe FIA knew the fuel flow was below 100k but was afraid that the cars would not finish due to the Aussie circuits high fuel demand. especially Mercedes cars. F and R cars did not have that problem and had set up their cars for the limit but M would not reach the finish line. So FIA artificially lowered the fuel limit by changing sensor calibration. Hence Montezemolos disdain. Hence RBs refusal to agree. With 2 formation laps and a safety car, the mercs still needed lits of fuel saving. Hence the talk of 96 kg instead if 100.

[beelsebob]

Maybe FIA knew the fuel flow was below 100k but was afraid that the cars would not finish due to the Aussie circuits high fuel demand. especially Mercedes cars. F and R cars did not have that problem and had set up their cars for the limit but M would not reach the finish line. So FIA artificially lowered the fuel limit by changing sensor calibration. Hence Montezemolos disdain. Hence RBs refusal to agree. With 2 formation laps and a safety car, the mercs still needed lits of fuel saving. Hence the talk of 96 kg instead if 100.

Just... wat...

You realise that the Merc has the lowest fuel consumption of the 3, right?