Red Bull exceed fuel flow limit, Ricciardo DSQ at Australian GP

[Bazza]

Now, this thread is far too long (tldr), but the logical thing to do, instead of moaning and whining about speeding fines and politics, would be to find out how accurate Red Bull and the FIA have been regarding the sensors.

If they're showing fuel rate, the first derivative should give total fuel used. If it can't manage that to a reasonable degree of accuracy, then everyone involved is officially and objectively useless and stupid. Then you check that against the actual, physical measurements done by the team pre- and post-race.

ERGO

We should be able to work out if Red Bull

a) Stuck within the 100kg/hour limit

b) Went over the 100kg/hour limit

And the FIA either

a) Got lucky with their calibration/guess

b) Has no idea what they're doing

c) Gave a F1 Team wrong, incorrect or otherwise detrimental instructions, either knowingly or otherwise



Everyone's too busy trying to argue other things, it seems like everyone has forgotten that they were disqualified because of the 100kg/hour rule - that's the issue at hand, and it should be the one thing that matters in this case.

[dans79]

If they're showing fuel rate, the first derivative should give total fuel used. If it can't manage that to a reasonable degree

you would integrate to get the total amount of fuel used, not take a derivative.

[timbo]

If they're showing fuel rate, the first derivative should give total fuel used. If it can't manage that to a reasonable degree of accuracy, then everyone involved is officially and objectively useless and stupid. Then you check that against the actual, physical measurements done by the team pre- and post-race.

Actually an integral. Also, as the measurements are discreet it would simply be sum.\
However, this defeats the purpose of regs. Even if the total fuel quantity is within limits, if RB could boost power for even short periods of time they had advantage over the rivals.

[Dragonfly]

ERGO

We should be able to work out if Red Bull

a) Stuck within the 100kg/hour limit

b) Went over the 100kg/hour limit

And the FIA either

a) Got lucky with their calibration/guess

b) Has no idea what they're doing

c) Gave a F1 Team wrong, incorrect or otherwise detrimental instructions, either knowingly or otherwise

I've underlined the right answer.
9 out of 10 when it concerns FIA, this is the right one.

[SiLo]

They drove for over an hour correct?

They used less than or equal to 100KG of fuel?

The fuel rates therefore must have been under 100KG/H as an average across the entire race.

This fuel flow rate thing is silly, just give them 100KG of fuel and let them do what they want with it. If they want to use 200kg/h for the first ten laps let them because they will be slower afterwards.

[Richard]

With regard to the backup model, I wonder how the correction factor is worked out. I suspect it is calculated to ensure the backup model gives the same result as the sensor data. So the car goes into the race with two measuring systems in agreement. However, that agreement has no external calibration. So a car running a faulty sensor giving erroneous results in FP will have a backup model that has been calibrated to agree with that error.

I guess a team would spot the error because they have detailed understanding of the ECU data. From what we’ve heard, RB are saying they have never been happy with the backup model because both sensors were giving erroneous results? I agree the FIA could resolve this in FP by checking that the volume of fuel detected by the sensor is the same as the actual fuel used on a long run. Then there could be no dispute because both measurement methods have been calibrated to an actual thing – for the same reason all measurement systems are underpinned by a reference using physical thing.

ps – With regard to integral v sum …. I assume each sensor measures the flow rate at intervals, not the total flow during that interval. Hence the total would be an integral using Simpson’s rule, ie total = sum (flow rate* interval). We know the intervals are constant, so the integral does end up being very similar to a simple sum, ie total = sum(flow rate) * interval.

pps – Presumably the sensor measures speed of the flow, ie m/s? That would need to be converted to kg/h using the density of the fuel and area of the pipe. Hence total mass of fuel = sum (flow) * density * area * interval

[Coulthard's Jaw]

This fuel flow rate thing is silly, just give them 100KG of fuel and let them do what they want with it. If they want to use 200kg/h for the first ten laps let them because they will be slower afterwards.

Indeed. You get better racing if they do that as well.

[gandharva]

So it's official now.

An FIA spokesman confirmed to AUTOSPORT on Thursday that shortly before that deadline expired, Red Bull lodged its paperwork.

Red Bull formally lodges Daniel Ricciardo Australian GP appeal

[the EDGE]

How do the FIA know how much fuel is used over the course of the race, is this calculated using the same Fuel flow sensor or calculated another way?

[beelsebob]

How do the FIA know how much fuel is used over the course of the race, is this calculated using the same Fuel flow sensor or calculated another way?

Yes ;P

In all seriousness, that's exactly 100% right. It's calculated using the fuel flow sensor... or another way if they believe it's unreliable.

[Pup]

So it's official now.

An FIA spokesman confirmed to AUTOSPORT on Thursday that shortly before that deadline expired, Red Bull lodged its paperwork.

Red Bull formally lodges Daniel Ricciardo Australian GP appeal

Just as an FYI, Racer.com carries all of the Autosport stories, without the silly monthly limits or paywall...

http://www.racer.com/index.php/latest-s ... -gp-appeal

[Pup]

This fuel flow rate thing is silly, just give them 100KG of fuel and let them do what they want with it. If they want to use 200kg/h for the first ten laps let them because they will be slower afterwards.

Indeed. You get better racing if they do that as well.

You also get 1200hp engines, which the FIA does not want.

[Pup]

If they're showing fuel rate, the first derivative should give total fuel used. If it can't manage that to a reasonable degree of accuracy, then everyone involved is officially and objectively useless and stupid. Then you check that against the actual, physical measurements done by the team pre- and post-race.

The FIA doesn't measure the amount of fuel you have at the start or finish. They use the data from the FFM. Conceivably, they could do so in the future, but they can't go back in time.

[dans79]

If they're showing fuel rate, the first derivative should give total fuel used. If it can't manage that to a reasonable degree of accuracy, then everyone involved is officially and objectively useless and stupid. Then you check that against the actual, physical measurements done by the team pre- and post-race.

The FIA doesn't measure the amount of fuel you have at the start or finish. They use the data from the FFM. Conceivably, they could do so in the future, but they can't go back in time.

it would also be less accurate, because the 100kg limit per race is from lights out to checkered flag. To be that accurate with fuel, you have to have a sensor in the tank.

[Racewatcher]

This fuel flow rate thing is silly, just give them 100KG of fuel and let them do what they want with it. If they want to use 200kg/h for the first ten laps let them because they will be slower afterwards.

Indeed. You get better racing if they do that as well.

My personal issue with this scenario is that the lead driver can boost his speed on the straights with extra fuel to prevent an overtake, then slow it down in the corners to conserve fuel. Many tracks have limited overtaking opportunities, and you'd end up with one procession after another, with the first guy to the first corner taking the win. This system of fuel flow rates will work itself out in a few races. Give it some time.