More downforce or less for more overtaking?

[ringo]

For some time now it was believed that reducing the downforce of the cars will increase overtaking by allowing the cars to follow much closer.
Now We see that the 2014 cars have less downforce, but things have actually gotten worse. Because of the low grip, drivers are finding it harder to follow another car because they tyres are degrading faster, and the cars grip is being affected even more than before.

So what is the real solution..do they increase downforce even more where there is so much grip that losing some by following does not affect the total much?
Or do they reduce downforce to a point where there is little and following in dirty air doesn't affect it much because there isnt much to begin with?

What's the solution to the following and overtaking debacle?

[Lycoming]

Don't blame the aero for something that's caused by tires made from a wet paper bag.

So what is the real solution..do they increase downforce even more where there is so much grip that losing some by following does not affect the total much?

That won't work. Generally speaking, more downforce made = more downforce lost by following, so it cancels out.

Or do they reduce downforce to a point where there is little and following in dirty air doesn't affect it much because there isnt much to begin with?

If you wanted to eliminate the inherent disadvantage of following another car, this is the way to go. Of course, whether or not that makes for a better show is another story, because once you've reduced downforce to such a degree, I can pretty much guarantee that you will no longer have the fastest circuit racing cars in the world.

[bhall]

I think narrowing the front wings and eliminating beams wing hurt a lot. By doing so, the FIA hampered the cars' ability to create downforce in ground effect, the type least sensitive to "dirty air," not to mention the most efficient overall. So, cars have got that goin' for 'em, which isn't nice.

In any case, I think the right idea isn't so much about more or less downforce, but about smarter downforce.

That said, it might be too early to make any real judgments on that front. The cars are very spread out due to varying levels of performance, efficiency, driveability, etc, and to say definitively that aerodynamic problems are the reason for any overtaking difficulties seems a bit premature. They've also only raced on tracks where overtaking has never exactly been abundant anyway.

[Ogami musashi]

Don't blame the aero for something that's caused by tires made from a wet paper bag.



That won't work. Generally speaking, more downforce made = more downforce lost by following, so it cancels out.

That's is not correct and especially implying the contrary (i.e that less downforce equals less losses).

The actual situation and previous situations shows that the relationship is not linear at all.

[marcush.]

have you ever attempted to overtake a car with similar Performance envelope by following closely ? this does not work at all .Overtaking is either a matter of the Driver in front in Trouble ( mechanical ,fuel consumption temps whatever) or making a mistake .
you can try to pressure the Opponent into making a mistake -but guys like Hulk or Schumacher do not make mistakes when defending .They have it pretty much under control due to peripheral awareness anticipation and strategy (they act ,they do not react as this is not allowed within the rules)
So brings us back to square one overtaking is not a matter of cf Brakes aero or weight -or power it is a matter of Deltas in Performance envelopes -does your car Nurse the tyres without compromising lap times , could you use traffic and clever tactics to save some kers or ERSH energy when your Counterpart could not add to this DRS and you got an overtake Situation.

would one want artificial overtaking ? I think it makes sense if there is no way past even if you are 2 seconds quicker than the guy in front.

[ringo]

Perez's point of view on the matter:

Perez thinks it is wrong to single out the new fuel-efficient engines as a cause of the lack of action this year, for he thinks the ultimate cause is a dramatic reduction in downforce for 2014.

That has led to an increase in tyre degradation, which drivers are having to manage by driving under the limit of full car performance.

Sergio Perez, Force India, Malaysian GP 2014"Although Pirelli is bringing really, really hard compounds, the degradation is not really improving because you are sliding and you are degrading as much as if it was a soft compound," explained the Force India driver. "So to follow a car is difficult.

"With the lack of downforce it is difficult, so you have to be on a different strategy to have a good move."

Although trickier cars do make mistakes more likely, Perez thinks that being able to seize on such moments is harder because cars cannot follow each other so closely.

"Obviously it is easier to do a mistake, but the problem is that if you degrade the tyres by sliding more and following a car, you lose a lot of downforce.

"So that makes things harder for us to attack someone who is on a similar pace to you."

[rich1701]

Certainly less downforce produces better racing. The dirty air zone was minimised at old Hockenhiem and Monza allowing closer racing in my view.

[Rikhart]

You want more overtaking? Make better tyres.

[Pierce89]

You want more overtaking? Make better tyres.

I wouldn't count on that being a solution. Did you watch f1 in 2010?

[mrluke]

have you ever attempted to overtake a car with similar Performance envelope by following closely ? this does not work at all .Overtaking is either a matter of the Driver in front in Trouble ( mechanical ,fuel consumption temps whatever) or making a mistake .
you can try to pressure the Opponent into making a mistake -but guys like Hulk or Schumacher do not make mistakes when defending .They have it pretty much under control due to peripheral awareness anticipation and strategy (they act ,they do not react as this is not allowed within the rules)
So brings us back to square one overtaking is not a matter of cf Brakes aero or weight -or power it is a matter of Deltas in Performance envelopes -does your car Nurse the tyres without compromising lap times , could you use traffic and clever tactics to save some kers or ERSH energy when your Counterpart could not add to this DRS and you got an overtake Situation.

would one want artificial overtaking ? I think it makes sense if there is no way past even if you are 2 seconds quicker than the guy in front.

I agree with the post above but would suggest that the magnitude of the performance delta required to effect an overtake is dependant largely upon how close you are to the car in front when you gain the advantage of that delta.

i.e. if you can follow within <0.5s you only need a small power advantage to get past, if you struggle to follow with 2s then you need a much larger advantage.

____

There appeared to be lots of overtaking in Australia and thinking back to the race at Sepang there was not really much opportunity for overtaking, I can only think of Massa being stuck behind slower cars....but then again it is Massa.

Bottas couldnt get past Massa but he was only 0.5s a lap quicker and was in the same car so perhaps to be expected?

[Just_a_fan]

If you want overtaking you need more cars on the grid and you need a broader spread of talent. When you have 4 or 5 broadly similar drivers in a line in cars with broadly similar performance overtaking only happens when one of them makes a mistake. In F1 the drivers are all pretty decent (yes, even the guys at the back are mostly accomplished drivers). In F1, the cars in a given portion of the grid are broadly similar in performance.

As we have seen over the last few years of fiddling with the rules, fiddling with the rules won't change the racing unless it makes the cars suddenly different in performance (hint: see the use of DRS to improve overtaking by making one car much "better" than the other in a straight line.).

Adding more cars increases the chances of some car differences as well as increasing the chances that relatively less-able drivers are in the mix.

Of course, doing this requires that the cost of a season in F1 is dramatically lower than it is now. One way to do that would be to have spec. cars. Some teams might not like that (looking at you Ferrari) but the sport would probably see a large net benefit from it. Another way of increasing differences between drivers/cars would be making the engines much peakier in delivery and making the gearboxes fully manual again. This would make them more difficult to drive and hence increase the chances of mistakes and hence overtaking.

[heidenreich27]

Its ERS whos blocking overtakes,

[Töm87]

All they'd have to do is ban diffusors and replace them with venturi tunnels.
But i guess that's too difficult for the morons of FIA

[rjsa]

All they'd have to do is ban diffusors and replace them with venturi tunnels.
But i guess that's too difficult for the morons of FIA

+ smaller front wings and big rear ones.

But no one will touch the diffuser, I don't get it.

The problem with passing has been for a while the loss of front DF from the wake of the car ahead on the following one's front wings. They even tried a lift producing center section and moving flaps to counter it.

While in the back the diffuser is working all the time.

[FoxHound]

Eliminate a reliance on downforce.
Simply eliminate it.

We have seen for the last 20 years that DF is THE differentiator. Bad ass engine? Have some DF for the tonic.
What is fully required is a formula dedicated to bringing equality between bat and ball. Any one familiar with cricket will know what I mean.

A car is the sum of its parts. However in the current ruleset DF is still the differentiator.
Is it right? I'll let y'all decide.

Red bull are well behind on engines yet finish third and still manage complaints of Mercedes superiority.
Hererin lies the rub my fellow plebians, does one over emphasise one discipline over the over for so long that it becomes "acceptable formula" or do you redress the balance to accomadate the other disciplines?

Big ass question.