Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

[cherok1212]

Vettel is almost as overrated as Kimi.

No one as overrated as the Iceman. RB9 was a slot car after the break last year, designed for anyone who knows throttle from brake, not just Seb.

[Cam]

This thread makes for some entertaining reading now

To be fair, I wasn't entirely sure last year why Ricciardo got the Red Bull drive, had been thinking he hadn't really done anything impressive.

As has been stated several times now and can be found by a very simple Google search - Red Bull have very clear definitions on what they look for, what they see as 'special', what works for them. As a hint, go review why Hamilton did not get the drive when he was sniffing around a few years back. It also explains Raikkonen, Webber and crucially, it explains Ricciardo to a tee. The team every single driver wanted to be in for the last 4 years, chose Ricciardo. The fact some people don't understand this speaks more about them, then questioning a driver choice by Red Bull. I mean who has all the facts, Red Bull, or some arm chair critic?

[Cam]

Everything that is happening to Vettel this year happened to Webber throughout his time with Redbull. Bad luck, trouble adapting to the car and/or situation etc... All the Vettel fans were just saying he was a crap driver. Now Vettel has it, they come up with the excuses.

No, I'm not a Vettel fan, and I still say Webber was pretty crap.

Mark is very sensitive on the aerodynamics of the car, Sebastian is very sensitive in other areas like tyres and suspension characteristics, so they have complemented each other.”

Ying and yang makes the whole. When you look at just one part out of context, it's easy to see why you have that opinion. When viewed as a whole with all the components of team, I would argue Webber was far from "crap", indeed he played a critical part in securing 4 x WCC. This is something you (and others) never acknowledge. It's disappointing when some highlight only the parts that fit their argument.

[FoxHound]

Cam

That same criticism you are levelling at others can be levelled to yourself.
I won't wade into this, but I will add that Webbers role in the 4 WCC's was par for the course for an average driver. In some instances sub par.
What was important is that the "equilibrium" of having a clear number one and number 2 allowed the team to make full use of their car advantages of the last 4 years.

[Cam]

Cam

That same criticism you are levelling at others can be levelled to yourself.
I won't wade into this, but I will add that Webbers role in the 4 WCC's was par for the course for an average driver. In some instances sub par.
What was important is that the "equilibrium" of having a clear number one and number 2 allowed the team to make full use of their car advantages of the last 4 years.

People can call a driver "crap", if they wish. Backing it up is another thing. Personal issues with Vettel aside, never once was Webber's ability to drive, setup and develop the car questioned by the team. So how was he "crap"?

If you, or others, had shown, using Red Bulls criteria, that a driver was "crap", "average" or whatever, then I could consider that and even agree. Is it too much to ask for?

[FoxHound]

At least under stand why people are expressing their opinion as such. How many races did webber win in relation to Vettel over the 4 years?

9 to 38. Vettels record is bourne out of the fact Webber is distinctly average.
A good or great driver would get far more than Webbers return. Saying that, I'm speaking relatively as no doubt webber is better than I or you ever will be.

Red Bull's yarstick of measuring a driver is their own. And Marko would've shown Webber the door on various occasions if it were not for Horner.
We have a half decent ricciardo at Red Bull now, and you have to say, had he been there in 2013/12 red bull would probably have tallied more points than they did.

[Cam]

So by that reckoning, putting Maldonado in Webber's seat would have yielded the same results?

Edit: seeing as Mateschitz went to great effort and cost to put 'the' team together, to put a "crap" and "average" driver in there is basically accusing them all of negligence. Why? For some conspiracy to make a German look good? They need to win, having the best people in every position is key - they would never carry dead weight, which is what those opinions are claiming.

[Shakeman]

A 4x WDC means Vettel is far from mediocre and Webber certainly wasn't crap but I certainly don't think Vettel is in the A league of GP drivers.

I am of the opinion that the 4X WDCs do flatter Vettel and the superiority of the RB during their purple patch was probably more than either of the drivers were able to demonstrate, Newey completely nailed the exhaust blown era.

I don't recall Webber ever really showing more than being a good solid driver that maximised his talent in his F1 career, I do remember Vettel certainly being hyped as the Wunderkind and he certainly looked the part against Webber but was that a good benchmark? Ricciardo certainly looks like a better benchmark to me (I think he might be the real deal).

Let's take what Horner says at face value and currently the RB car does not give Vettel the feel necessary to get his lap time but being a driver able to win 4xWDC he should be able to adapt. Alonso is right, let him have a crap car and see how good he is then, no doubt those words are ringing in Vettel's ears right now. If Seb is unable to manage the new handling characteristics of the RB car long term and Ricciardo continues to go about his business and beat him Vettel's stock will drop and it's only natural for it to do so. Lewis' stock wasn't looking so great in his annus horribilis but form is temporary and class is permanent. Lewis is back in the game, the question is will Seb be back in the game?

[AlexJ]

This thread makes for some entertaining reading now

To be fair, I wasn't entirely sure last year why Ricciardo got the Red Bull drive, had been thinking he hadn't really done anything impressive.

As has been stated several times now and can be found by a very simple Google search - Red Bull have very clear definitions on what they look for, what they see as 'special', what works for them. As a hint, go review why Hamilton did not get the drive when he was sniffing around a few years back. It also explains Raikkonen, Webber and crucially, it explains Ricciardo to a tee. The team every single driver wanted to be in for the last 4 years, chose Ricciardo. The fact some people don't understand this speaks more about them, then questioning a driver choice by Red Bull. I mean who has all the facts, Red Bull, or some arm chair critic?

One good choice does not make Red Bull infallible.

Of the previous Toro Rosso drivers, Bourdais was dropped after less than one season, Alguersuari and Buemi each got 2 seasons before Red Bull decided they were not "special" and unceremoniously dumped the pair. Replaced by Ricciardo and Vergne, neither of whom put in any stand-out performances in 2 years (although its hard to judge driver quality vs car performance without a variety of teammates to cross reference them against).

So yeah, was assuming RB wanted to prove their junior team program wasn't a waste of time and money (or at least capable of producing more than one good driver in 7 years), and that Ricciardo was apparently good enough to be Vettel's No.2.

[FoxHound]

So by that reckoning, putting Maldonado in Webber's seat would have yielded the same results?

Edit: seeing as Mateschitz went to great effort and cost to put 'the' team together, to put a "crap" and "average" driver in there is basically accusing them all of negligence. Why? For some conspiracy to make a German look good? They need to win, having the best people in every position is key - they would never carry dead weight, which is what those opinions are claiming.

Maldonado won in a mediocre Williams. That's better than Webber by my reckoning.
Who said anything about employing a mediocre driver to make a "german look good"?
Red Bull employed driver preference as a strategem to get both titles. It works well with a commanding machine as they enjoyed the last 4 years.
Whether it makes a driver look good or bad is if no consequence as it's more important the Brand Red Bull wins. Its a means to an end.

[NathanOlder]

Webber was never all that good (F1 standards) His 2 seasons next to DC was 1.1 and DC was never great. a good solid team mate maybe so both drivers very similar. Basically if DC and Webber had the last 4 years in the Red Bull, we'd be looking at Webber 2 times, and DC 2 times WDC IMO.
So Vettel had it easy. I put Vettel in a gap between the average drivers and the great drivers. A catagory that i'd put the likes of Button, Frentzen, J.Villeneuve, Alesi, Berger, Kubica, Kimi, Montoya and plenty more.

[JimClarkFan]

Imho, the truth is in the middle, as always.

Yes, Vettel is chased by bad luck so far. He had technical issues in the majority of weekends so far. Barcelona is the worst by now with a completely missed friday and a gearbox-failiure in qualifying.

Yes, Vettel has problems to adapt to the new car. He said that himself, and some predicted this already last year, given the fact that Vettel was the one who adjusted his driving style the most extreme to the best working EBD-system in the field, which is now simply not existant anymore. Furthermore, he is the youngest of the top-pilots and hasn't had to adapt his driving style much in his career until today. He needs to prove now that he can do it.

Yes, the team also struggles to figure out its problems. We had software problems, electrical failiures, cooling problems, tyre problems, now gearbox problems, it seems everytime you solve one problem, another one shows up.

So, Vettels RB10 refuses to work right most of the time while the driver would desperately need driving practice to "learn" the new generation of Formula1 cars. This can't work out well.

You make your own luck a lot of the times. Ricciardo got thrown out of the GP in Australia for a decision which the team made, I consider that bad luck, unfortunate is probably a better word, because the decision was likely out of his hands.

This weekend Vettel changed his chassis which means a complete rebuild of his car. You can say what you want about luck, but the fact is that on Vettels side of the garage, and with his decision to change the chassis, there was almost certainly a good deal more work going on and engineering mistakes in those situations are more likely - no?

If Vettel had not changed his chassis, I suspect many of this problems this weekend would be none existent.

My point is that I am willing to wager that a lot of Vettels ''bad luck'' this weekend is a direct result of his decision to take a new chassis. In other words by taking a new chassis it was Vettel who greatly increased the probability that something would go wrong, and therefore it is Vettel who is largely responsible for the issues he encountered this weekend - not blind bad luck.

I agree that sentiment is largely at extremes in these situations and the truth lies somewhere in the middle though, I also agree larger with the rest of your post too - just not the bad luck part

[PlatinumZealot]

OK Today Vettel showed again why he is 4XWDC. He may not be the absolute fastest over a flying lap, but he sure can handle a race like a true Champ.

[Vegetabill]

I am by no means a Vettel fan. I do not think he has ever really had a decent yardstick of a team mate in F1 to be compared to the greats, old or current. His early single formula career was hardly distinguished and IMO showed him on a par with the likes of DiResta, DiGrassi and Sutil. Compare him for instance to Lewis Hamilton. He received a similar advantage of large sponsor backing but he dominated the opposition and finished his rookie F1 season level with Alonso, a 2 time WDC and arguably the best since Schumacher. However, as far as this thread is concerned I think it is still way to early to tell how he and Ricciardo compare. I'll reserve judgement until around August (Spa) when "luck" should have evened out and both drivers are comfortable in their machinery. I was very impressed with Seb's drive today coming through the pack. Maybe things are starting to click again for him.

[Juzh]

I am by no means a Vettel fan. I do not think he has ever really had a decent yardstick of a team mate in F1 to be compared to the greats, old or current. His early single formula career was hardly distinguished and IMO showed him on a par with the likes of DiResta, DiGrassi and Sutil.

Will people stop with these lower category results nonsense already? Vettel had a broken finger when he was teammate with di resta (almost lost it)
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webber beat alonso for god's sake (weren't team mates, but still).