Log VS Tubular exhaust, which one is more efficient ?

[xpensive]

an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

Which overruns it all, when it "may be".

Overruns what?

The turbine and compressor must:
a) be coaxial, and
b) turn at the same speed.

Adding an MGUH to the system is optional.

There's the loophole that MHPE found, a lots of may be.

[wuzak]

an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

Which overruns it all, when it "may be".

Overruns what?

The turbine and compressor must:
a) be coaxial, and
b) turn at the same speed.

Adding an MGUH to the system is optional.

There's the loophole that MHPE found, a lots of may be.

What loophole?

Explain to me how you can get around the requirement for the turbine and compressor to run at the same speed.

[xpensive]

And xactly how will anyone monitor that?

[FW17]

And xactly how will anyone monitor that?

open it up and see if they are on the same shaft

[xpensive]

Which they will be, but de-clutchable, all still within the rules.

[GitanesBlondes]

I have to agree with xpensive on this. This isn't down to better mapping of the ERS systems or more efficient use of them that has given Mercedes such an advantage. The clutch rule is key here. Besides it's not like it'd be the first time a team tried to circumvent the rules. You guys are funny thinking that ethics and integrity exist in F1.

[langwadt]

Which they will be, but de-clutchable, all still within the rules.

5.1.6
..
The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft
assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the
same angular velocity
..

the mgu-h to turbo can be clutched, but the turbine to compressor can't

[xpensive]

Written where, if you can clutch you can clutch, ie the loophole.

[GitanesBlondes]

Which they will be, but de-clutchable, all still within the rules.

5.1.6
..
The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft
assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the
same angular velocity
..

the mgu-h to turbo can be clutched, but the turbine to compressor can't

You guys are making the mistake of thinking the clutch part of the rules specifies only one clutch, and only one area. It says none of that. Besides, how would anyone at any point know that the angular velocity of the compressor and the turbine is the same?

Anyway, 5.2.4 basically negates 5.1.6. It's pretty ingenious how they offer the loophole in the section titled "Other means of propulsion and energy recovery" so as to make it sound like it's completely unrelated to the engine specification.

Why would you even mention the MGU-H may be clutched if there wasn't something shady going on?

The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging
system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be
clutched.

All they had to say was...

The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging
system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine.

Instead they throw in a completely unnecessary 4 words, "...and may be clutched."

Were I more suspicious type, I might be wondering if this championship was rigged on some level. But that seems preposterous to me.

[wuzak]

Sorry, the idea that the clutched part negates the rule that requires that the compressor and turbine turn at the same speed is absurd.

The rule relates to the MGUH, which can be geared and clutched. The reason that it can be clutched is so that at times when it is not required to drive the turbo or is not generating power it can be disconnected and remove the inertia from the system.

The rules require the turbine and compressor to be linked "by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity."

Whether or not the MGUH is clutched or not has no bearing on this rule.

Furthermore, the rules say:

"The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched."

Thus the MGUH is not restricted in its location - it can be driven off at a weird angle by some sort of bevel drive. So long as the speed ratio between the turbo's shaft system and the MGUH is fixed (apart from when it is clutched).

[langwadt]

Which they will be, but de-clutchable, all still within the rules.

5.1.6
..
The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft
assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the
same angular velocity
..

the mgu-h to turbo can be clutched, but the turbine to compressor can't

You guys are making the mistake of thinking the clutch part of the rules specifies only one clutch, and only one area. It says none of that. Besides, how would anyone at any point know that the angular velocity of the compressor and the turbine is the same?

by having turbine and compressor permanently fixed to a common shaft

[wuzak]

You guys are making the mistake of thinking the clutch part of the rules specifies only one clutch, and only one area. It says none of that. Besides, how would anyone at any point know that the angular velocity of the compressor and the turbine is the same?

by having turbine and compressor permanently fixed to a common shaft

Or shaft system. The rules allow for the turbine and compressor to be driven by a shaft system which may be composed of more than one shaft. Like many car driveshafts are.

[GitanesBlondes]

Electromagnetics and clutches....engine structural supports...Mercedes didn't spend 3 years and $400 million for no reason folks.

[wuzak]

Electromagnetics and clutches....engine structural supports...Mercedes didn't spend 3 years and $400 million for no reason folks.

Doesn't mean they are disconnecting the compressor and turbine.

Reality is that is about controlling the MGUH and getting the most from it.

What about the engine supports? Is it not just bolted to the tub and gearbox, like they have all been pretty much since the late 1960s?

[langwadt]

Electromagnetics and clutches....engine structural supports...Mercedes didn't spend 3 years and $400 million for no reason folks.

Doesn't mean they are disconnecting the compressor and turbine.

Reality is that is about controlling the MGUH and getting the most from it.

What about the engine supports? Is it not just bolted to the tub and gearbox, like they have all been pretty much since the late 1960s?

all the mounting points are specified in the regulations, to at least in theory enable any engine fits in any car, so
there's not a whole lot of room to play with

I think Merc spend a couple of years programming