Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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I was thinking that, to achieve a structure that could absorb a greater amount of energy due to a collision, the engine (not necessarily the V6) could be moved in front of the pilot. The results remind me late '50 cars.

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Last edited by CAEdevice on 09 Oct 2014, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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... the white color made ​​it hard to see the geometry

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Last edited by CAEdevice on 09 Oct 2014, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

trinidefender
trinidefender
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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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Interesting idea. Just imagine from the point of the driver, having the car rotation point in front of him would take some getting used to. Also I can imagine the headaches that teams would have with C of G issues.

alexx_88
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Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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I'm no expert, but won't putting the engine in front would also greatly increase the chances of bits of it getting into the cockpit, basically increasing risk?

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CAEdevice
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Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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trinidefender wrote:Interesting idea. Just imagine from the point of the driver, having the car rotation point in front of him would take some getting used to. Also I can imagine the headaches that teams would have with C of G issues.
Thermal engine only would be placed in front of the cockpit (about 100kg), while the pilot (about 70kg) would be moved 600-650mm behind. Batteries, kers, fuel thank and gearbox would be behind the cockipt. Probably areodynamics should be deeply modified too (in the picture I used the same rear and front wing, and the same "concepts" of a 2014 car)
alexx_88 wrote:I'm no expert, but won't putting the engine in front would also greatly increase the chances of bits of it getting into the cockpit, basically increasing risk?
Yes you are right, but if a collision would so violent to cause this, probably other objects (guardrail, other cars engine, ... ) could do the same.

trinidefender
trinidefender
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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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CAEdevice wrote:
trinidefender wrote:Interesting idea. Just imagine from the point of the driver, having the car rotation point in front of him would take some getting used to. Also I can imagine the headaches that teams would have with C of G issues.
Thermal engine only would be placed in front of the cockpit (about 100kg), while the pilot (about 70kg) would be moved 600-650mm behind. Batteries, kers, fuel thank and gearbox would be behind the cockipt. Probably areodynamics should be deeply modified too (in the picture I used the same rear and front wing, and the same "concepts" of a 2014 car)
alexx_88 wrote:I'm no expert, but won't putting the engine in front would also greatly increase the chances of bits of it getting into the cockpit, basically increasing risk?
Yes you are right, but if a collision would so violent to cause this, probably other objects (guardrail, other cars engine, ... ) could do the same.
You don't want the fuel tank behind the driver. With a 100L tank behind the driver draining over the race the centre of gravity will change dramatically.

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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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You don't want the fuel tank behind the driver. With a 100L tank behind the driver draining over the race the centre of gravity will change dramatically.[/quote]

I agree. Maybe the fuel thank should be someway (or partially) placed under the seat, with a less horizontal positiong of the pilot.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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Looks like your driver's feet are in the engine bay by quite some margin
Not the engineer at Force India

tuj
tuj
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Joined: 15 Jun 2007, 15:50

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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I think the problem with this design is the same sort of thing you saw in the Panoz front-engined LMP car. You have to move the driver very far rear-wards in order to keep the ideal CoG balance which favors weight in the rear of the car. Panoz didn't do too bad with their LMP-1 Roadster-S but I still think the front-engine design has too many compromises to make it in F1.

The one thing I do like about front-engine design is that it (most likely) removes the engine as a fully-stressed member, and it becomes semi-stressed or just cradled in the chassis. This allows the engine developer to ignore structural rigidity regarding the block as a member and allows for more innovative powerplants, such as the H4, I4, Wankel, etc.

Blanchimont
Blanchimont
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Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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Things to consider:

Fuel lines from the tank(if behind the driver like now) to the engine next to the driver, a potential fire risk.
How to transmit the torque from the engine to the rear wheels? Raise the driver by 10 cm or place an additional shaft next to the driver?
Does the increased distance from the nose to the driver because of the driver really absorb more energy? The structure around the engine probably will be very rigid.

Wouldn't i be better to just rewrite the nose regulations, demanding the nose tip at least 1000mm ahead of the FWCL and defining a crash structure that absorbs more energy and which is soft at the front and becomes more rigid towards the section AA with minimum decelerations (like now) for the nose tip?

And finally: Would it have helped in a crash like the one Bianchi experienced?
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

langwadt
langwadt
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Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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Tim.Wright wrote:Looks like your driver's feet are in the engine bay by quite some margin
and he'll need to sit on the drive shaft. I'm not sure a lump of metal is better than the current crash structure.

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CAEdevice
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Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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Thank you for your comments.

I did some tests with an anatomic dummy: I confirm that with the actual geometry there would be interference between the cockpit and the engine. To make it more realistic I added the following changes:

[*]Driver's seat moved 150mm behind (750mm behind the original)
[*]The lowest point of the driver's seat is now 100mm higher to accommodate the transmission and part of the tank. Only the lower portion of the seat where you place the butt (sic) has been raised, so the riding position is less lying.
[*]The survival cell height near the helmet has been raised to meet the new seating positiong

As someone wrote, the results is something like a roadster shape :)

daveyrace
daveyrace
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Joined: 25 Jan 2014, 11:48

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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Just so you know. If it is of any help.

From what I remember from studying crash testing, the problem with a road car in a frontal crash is that the engine does not deform.
If the crash structure in-front of the engine cannot absorb or dissipate the energy then the engine is effectively forced back into the passenger compartment.
In the case of a road car the crash structure is basically the two metal struts either side that the engine is mounted to. If you hit square on then both of these can act together to deform and absorb the impact. If you impact just on one side then only one of these structures does the job, obviously not as well as two. However, if you hit a pole/tree in the middle, you do not use these crash structures and it simply hits the engine, which will not deform(much) and transfer the energy to the point behind it, the passenger compartment/bulkhead.
This is where bigger cars do better on crash tests as they have more room in this area for the engine to move without hitting anything.
Basically an engine block directly in-front of the passengers is a bit of a problem for the designers when trying to perform well in a variety of crash scenarios. But it gives more room for all the rubbish we pile our cars up with in the back.
This is why they test for frontal offset in NCAP, but interestingly they do not test against a frontal pole impact(I suspect because all cars would perform very badly).

Now a road car without an engine in the front is far easier to design to take an impact well, across the whole area, as it is a veritable free for all for the designers.

An example that springs to mind is the Mclaren F1 which did pretty well in crash tests at the time despite having a relatively short bonnet.
http://youtu.be/DJjf8W22xWI


Or a smart car, with its engine underneath at the back.
http://youtu.be/mnI-LiKCtuE


Now if you could have a reasonable area in-front of the engine to build a crash structure and provide a path around the engine for the energy to be absorbed rather than through it, it would be fine. Plus you might want the driver to have a gap between their feet and the engine.

I think you may well end up with an rather long vehicle once this is done. And some frustrated designers/engineers trying to work out how to balance the thing :? :lol: .

There is a quote I recall from a talk I attended given by a crash tester from NCAP which went along the lines of. "The only way to make all cars 'safe' would be to give them 20 foot long bonnets".

Now most road cars are made from folded sheet metal which under impact absorbs the impact by bending.
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The image above shows that the crash structure bends, using up the crash energy. However, Only the parts of the metal that bend are doing any work, the unbent sections between do nothing.

Carbon composites are your friend. :D
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Carbon structures when impacted will dust up and fracture. Far more of the material will do work in this instance in a much shorter distance.


So it may well be possible to produce a front engine F1 car, but in my opinion it would be far better to use the engine as a load bearing chassis member out the back than a problem to work around in the front.

Having said all that I would love to see some front engined cars razzing round a track with the rear engined ones. 8)

daveyrace
daveyrace
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Joined: 25 Jan 2014, 11:48

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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Blanchimont wrote:Things to consider:

And finally: Would it have helped in a crash like the one Bianchi experienced?
I have been thinking about this.
If we are saying that the impact started on the car just at or behind the driver then it hit a part of the car that does not deform well( roll bar, engine, gearbox) causing a sudden deceleration.
If these were not there then the deceleration may not have been as harsh.
However, the car would need a roll bar anyway, and the driver would probably be further back(where the impact occurred) and higher up due to the drive shaft in a front engined F1 car so it may have been worse as it would have gone further under the tractor before initial impact.

I will go with it not helping, but that's just my take on it.

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Front engine F1 and impact absorbing structure

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Surely having a very rigid engine in front of the driver is only going to make it more difficult to design a front crash structure which effectively dissipates the energy?