Post anything that doesn't belong in any other forum, including gaming and topics unrelated to motorsport. Site specific discussions should go in the site feedback forum.
I have to be careful here, but I want to say this: Without going into specifics and without coming back on xpensive (who wants to, is free to pm me or any other moderator), as long as the context is clear and meant in a comradry way, we allow quite a few things. This approach is fair, but leaves us open for situations like cultural differences or other types of misunderstandings. If such a misunderstanding is left unchecked, you have an open fued that perhaps never goes away.
What we do then is contact both persons and tell them where both points of views are coming from. If we explain to person B what person A meant, and explain to person A what person B interpreted, we open up the possibility for a mutual understanding.
It does however require both persons to cooperate. And of course some empathy that allows them to see where the other person is coming from.
I have had some issues with both X & certain mods..
& yet I have been banned from lesser places for less..
However, I am heartened ( & still here - as a result) by the thoughtfully considered/explained veto exercised by Steven..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"
Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).
marcush. wrote:Guys ,
You might consider here are at least some grown up old farts who do not really need to be teached lessons on how to behave .
I have to disagree here, some of the "old farts" on here do need to learn some lessons. I have seen on more than one occasion one of them talk down to, berate, patronize, hurl thinly veiled insults at other members who disagree with them, or just be a general pain in the a**. It's a common thing in web forums, basically some percentage of highly ranked members egos get the best of them. I've been a moderator before and seen it first hand. I can remember one guy going completely off the deep end because I warned him for cursing on a forum frequented by children. He gave me a big "do you know who I am, and how important I am to the forum " line.
marcush. wrote:
If Ciro cannot take Xs banter ,I´m quite sorry to hear this but hey we are grown up and I´m fed up to hear in my ethnic circle this or that is a no go .
Bööööööööö
It is always the same story, somebody gets banned or somebody leaves because he can’t stand one of the mods anymore. Guys take a breath and relax. Wait a few days until every bad feelings have settled and then unban him X. Maybe Ciro and X can solve their problems by themselves. They should not need a mod for that and if so they can ask some other members of their own choice. Maybe X will sent and excuse to Ciro but maybe he will not. There are always people who can’t stand each other. That’s just life.
What I always note on those occasions is that the forum content is hardly technical. What I don’t get is why the members only care about Formula 1 but not about other racing series. Especially as F1 more and more turns into a spec series and we will face one of the most boring and predictable seasons ever.
I will certainly miss X, but this won't be the first forum where he's had problems. Insulting anyone who disagrees with you does wear thin.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970
“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
I have spoken to two Portuguese co-works about how big an insult being called an SOB is. Both found it laughable that anyone would get their nose so out of joint over it. Either there was more to it or someone is being way over sensitive.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
Forums need their members to maintain at least a basic level of civility if they want to avoid a completely toxic atmosphere. If someone can't even manage that they should probably stick to reddit.
Oh and it DEFINITELY shouldn't matter whether someone is well-liked by some of the more vocal members of the community or not, rules are rules.
mep wrote:Bööööööööö
...
What I always note on those occasions is that the forum content is hardly technical. What I don’t get is why the members only care about Formula 1 but not about other racing series. Especially as F1 more and more turns into a spec series and we will face one of the most boring and predictable seasons ever.
I share your pain, but F1 itself does not give us the opportunity to be that much technical. Personally I find it hard to maintain an upbeat mood even on the TV whenever a team brings a ... two small winglets as update... But that's the state F1 is in right now. This is one of the reasons why we have discussions which are going a bit astray from the purely technical side. Still, members of the forum have done some pretty good efforts to keep things sharp.
I can't comment on the ban case, as I'm not aware of the details, but I'm not sure I want to either - if rules are broken, there are no indispensable man.
strad wrote:I have spoken to two Portuguese co-works about how big an insult being called an SOB is. Both found it laughable that anyone would get their nose so out of joint over it. Either there was more to it or someone is being way over sensitive.
Cultural differences can exist within a country. Cultural differences can even exist from neighborhood to neighborhood with in the same city or town. even generational differences can play a part, things that my generation doesn't care about might get you knocked out by my parents generation.
the only people who can decide what's acceptable is the moderation staff, those who can't handle it should move on in my opinion!
I can write nothing to the case itself but i want to say two general Things i learned about the "Forum Life".
First, as my almost 20 Years of Forum Experience (User and Mod) told me it is quite often the senior Members (be it in Membership duration or of Age) that need to be "brought in line". So no, long term Members shouldn't have any more leeway than New Members and most certainly are not automatically the ones that know how to behave.
Second, what an Individual sees as acceptable in Terms of being "called something" varies HUGELY between different People. What one shrugs of as if it's nothing really bothers other People. So just because you are not offended doesn't mean other People can't be. That's especially tricky in International Forums where many cultures clash together.
But that's what the Forum Rules are for. And if they have been broken the Person has to live with the Consequences. Period.
strad wrote:I have spoken to two Portuguese co-works about how big an insult being called an SOB is. Both found it laughable that anyone would get their nose so out of joint over it. Either there was more to it or someone is being way over sensitive.
Portugese? I thought Ciro was from Columbia or somewhere in South America other tHan Brazil.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970
“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
The language spoken is of minor issue. What is important is that the issue is born from a cultural difference. That's not a lie, and for everybody's record: we take that serious. This might be internet and this indeed is a international board, and the saying "you have to adopt to the common good" is true. But will issues out of ethnic or cultural differences not happen, because that notion is true? Of course not.
Perhaps I can explain this with an other example. You have a business meeting with someone from Saoudi Arabia. You are left handed and to greet him, you extend your left hand to shake hands. You just have offended the man. Traditionally, and I say traditionally because toilet paper is just as common as around here, the left hand is used there to whipe your ass after you took a dumb. Trying to give him the left hand is a huge insult, yet you did not know it.
That happens, that's not something we will ever give disciplinary action for on itself. What we do expect is that when informed of your action, you have to extend the hand (the right one please!) telling the person you never meant to insult him. That's something you should do in real life when you have manners, and you should do that here as well.
We also informed the insulted party that he misjudged the gesture. We expect from him too to seek common ground. We do take disciplinary action if either one utterly refuses to take this serious. It sounds silly, but wars have started for similar issues.
Would that yield a permanent ban? No, it would not on its own. What earns you a permanent ban is consistently and continually act in an uncivilized matter without any attempt to make changes. It could have been 3 events back in past or 4 events in the future, but this decision would have fallen at one point. Trying to single this particular event out as the reason why he got a permanent ban is wrong because there were many other situations in the past that made their fair share in the decision.
I'd like to keep this topic open. I fully respect the ones who want to disagree with the decision, it's their freedom of choice what they want to believe. However, I do want that everybody stays respectful for eachother, being it for me, the other moderators, Ciro or Xpensive. Criticism is allowed, but has to stay constructive. I deleted already some posts that are only out to undermine somebody else, including me. Stay respectful in your opinion, that's all I ask. freedom of speech is not the same as freedom to slander.
I don't see why he'd want to post again here even if you un-banned him. A ban on a forum is like capital punishment and must be considered very carefully. It should be the last resort and ideally never used. I'd never ban people from a forum if i was a mod (well, almost). That said, i do think this is one of the very few places i've come across with good moderation where the mods/admin really make an effort.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk
