Nothing works for HONDA RACING (formula one team :P )

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

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Honda lack of progress this year is puzzling. Of course they’ve been on a downhill curve since the end of 2004, only their pace at the end of last year showed some promise. Over the last half of last year the team lost its key technical staff (Willis, Toet) and had the new tunnel to commission.

The new car appears to have kept a lot of the basic mechanical components, with only the repackaging of the cooling and exhausts inside the sidepods being major alterations. But the team made a big aero change around the rear end but kept the front end pretty much the same. Plus the team had to change the car to suit the Bridgestones, The tyres stiffness and squash characteristics being very different to the Michelins. If you recall Honda never really got to grips with the Michelins since 2004, often finding grip disappeared for final Q runs or in the race.

At the start of the year the drivers complained of instability under braking and a lack of grip. Soon they confirmed the problem wasn’t at the rear of the car but around the front wheels, despite this claim the complex winglets around the sidepods were dropped for Melbourne. Since, Honda haven’t really made big changes around the front wing area, the endplates are derived from 2006 and the wing albeit changed has only now seen a major change to a McLaren-style 3 element big wing, the bargeboards have been tweaked and the pod wings McLaren-ised.

I would say Honda problems stemmed from a lack of downforce (efficiency) at the front and the ability to make the aero work at all attitudes. The Bridgestone front tyres need lots of vertical load to put the heat into them and keep it there, so the big new front wing should be a step in the right direction. To some extent Hondas inability to get the aero and suspension working in unison with the tyres but I would eye the aero as the key issue. I doubt the issue is mechanical in respect to stiffness, Dr Gary Savage (now off to join Willis at Red Bull) is a top engineer, the Honda’s structures are more than stiff enough.

How the team proceed for next year will be interesting. Now devoid of continuity in the senior design and apparently without a hands on technical director there prospects look dim. Hondas increasing input to the team seems to cause problems, where as Super Aguri have Honda more as a sub contractor, dealing with gearbox and electronics. Right now good technical management is what Honda need, I don’t see that a role a corporate Honda engineer can fulfil.

They need someone who will lead the team and direct Hondas input, this is a tough job to fill. The person would need to have a degree of corporate nous but also have demonstrable record of getting the job done, this isn’t a position someone could step ‘up’ to. The shortlist must be pretty small, being a recent F1 tech director.

To my mind the ideal man would be Ross Brawn, with may be Renault man Bob Bell or Mark Smith (ex Renault) as good candidates with some reason to move.

Scarbs...

PNSD
PNSD
3
Joined: 03 Apr 2006, 18:10

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What bugs me is that how can they build a quick car next year when this car is nowhere.

tuj
tuj
15
Joined: 15 Jun 2007, 15:50

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What type of front suspension setup does Honda run? Two dampers? Monodamper? 2 with anti-dive? I'm wondering if its a big change from 06. The other area of concern might be the aero underneath the car at the mid-section. If its wrong it can dramatically effect the ability of the front wing to make down-force.

tuj
tuj
15
Joined: 15 Jun 2007, 15:50

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Carlos wrote:tuj - Welcome to the forum, hope you will post often. When the RA107 was introduced at the begining of the season; Honda talked about new front suspension ... but then most teams did. :wink: You are right; Honda has revised the front suspension. The link below specs new front suspension at the French GP on a revision ... the RA107B. I agree with a little flex in a motorcycle racing frame ... when cornering; bent over at a severe angle - a lateral flex in the chassis ... but not at the steering head. Would it be best at the middle of the frame? Surely not at the swingarm pivot point? I think F1 chassis are a little different. The less lateral/torsional flex the better as the geometry of 4 wheels is more complicated than two wheels plus no lean angles ... they corner pretty flat with the really stiff suspension.

EDIT - I think motorcycle frame design is another of the black arts - half science and half magic - I will never understand!:wink:
I was baffled the first time I read an article talking about a new GP bike and the designs talking about removing stiffness! Later it started to make sense to me that the lateral stiffness at the center of the frame can act as a suspension point between the two wheels. When the bike is leaned over, there's not enough sidewall to adequately dampen bumps, so the frame has to flex some.

Now obviously I'm not a chassis designer, but it would seem that there are advantages in having the chassis flex in F1, at least to confined degrees in certain areas/directions. From an article in Racecar from last year, they mentioned that Renault's success was in-part due to their ability to model in software the composite stiffness based on various ply weaves and lay-up directions. Perhaps flexing at the center of the chassis on the longitudinal axis would allow the aero surfaces to remain more parallel to the track while traversing bumps at high speed?

Perhaps the Honda car is indeed suffering from a lack of stiffness, which would explain mysterious handling traits.

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

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Honda run the usual two damper with a third pitch\heave damper. The wishbones are mounted via a zero keel as it was last year, but this year the steering arms ar emoved up to be inline with the upper wishbone (Last year they were mid spaced between the upper and lower wishbones. The pushrod again mounts to the upright and not the lower wishbone
Its hard to judge how much they've changed other areas of the suspension, but I'd guess its mainly the detail of the geometry thats changed...

Knowing the facilities at Honda and the ease in which teams can test the full size car for axle to axle stiffness and the stiffness of specific parts\installations. I'd doubt stiffness is an issue.
Where as wind tunnel testing is only a simulation, even with the full size car in the tunnel it does not replicate what the car sees on track. This is where Hondas issue lie....

PNSD
PNSD
3
Joined: 03 Apr 2006, 18:10

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Ahh, I think I said earlier, that in f1racing it mentioned Hondas full size tunnel and them possibly using a too big model and so are not getting accurate results when it comes to mapping out what happens behind the car..

hense the cotton tufts.

tuj
tuj
15
Joined: 15 Jun 2007, 15:50

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Too big of a model? AFAIK, all the teams have at least one full-sized tunnel, and I think its well-established that a model any smaller than 1:2 will throw off the Reynold's number.

PNSD
PNSD
3
Joined: 03 Apr 2006, 18:10

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Renault produced two championship winning cars with 60% models also with a substantially less budget.

I am not sure if Honda use 60% models, but im damn sure they use 100%, and the back wall is too close to the rear end of the car.

countersteer
countersteer
9
Joined: 28 Apr 2007, 14:37
Location: Spring Hill, TN

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Thought I'd throw this in... Back when King Kenny Roberts was racing the high banks on a TZ-750 (God I'm old) there was a lot of discussion about a special chassis that was made out of larger diameter tubing to acheive more stiffness.

The discussion was... consider the chassis as a spring. As it is loaded in the corner, the spring (chassis) deflects. If traction is lost, even for an instant, the spring snaps back... quickly. Imagine the result on slip angles over bumps if the chassis is "sproinging" back and forth.

A steel tube chassis wouldn't have any internal dampening mechanism or hysterisis. Don't know much about carbon fiber in this regard but I doubt it has much hysterisis either.

Don't know what to conclude from this... but hopefully it'll stir some conversation.

West
West
0
Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

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countersteer wrote:Thought I'd throw this in... Back when King Kenny Roberts was racing the high banks on a TZ-750 (God I'm old) there was a lot of discussion about a special chassis that was made out of larger diameter tubing to acheive more stiffness.

The discussion was... consider the chassis as a spring. As it is loaded in the corner, the spring (chassis) deflects. If traction is lost, even for an instant, the spring snaps back... quickly. Imagine the result on slip angles over bumps if the chassis is "sproinging" back and forth.

A steel tube chassis wouldn't have any internal dampening mechanism or hysterisis. Don't know much about carbon fiber in this regard but I doubt it has much hysterisis either.

Don't know what to conclude from this... but hopefully it'll stir some conversation.
Interesting... but like scarbs said, they seem to have poor aero development more than anything else. But it would be interesting to note... at the same time... Nicky Hayden's Honda motorcycle is ruining him this year.
Bring back wider rear wings, V10s, and tobacco advertisements

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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tuj wrote:Perhaps the Honda car is indeed suffering from a lack of stiffness, which would explain mysterious handling traits.

I'd be given to thinking its a combination of stiffness and aerodynamics. If the chassis is moving in a direction they cannot anticipate or figure out, then all their aerodynamics work is out the window.


Can a 7 post rig (or do they have more-post rigs these days? :lol:) fully account for aerodynamic loading on the whole car?



With the widespread (and growing) use of cfd in F1, it is somewhat surprising that they have continued to let their tunnel guide development.

Safer to take it offline, re-calibrate it, and hire a 3rd party tunnel for the interim while focusing on CFD as a stop-gap measure.


While you cannot expect to keep the same development rate as the teams around you, at least your removing one definite source of the problem, and not deffering the problem (which will only be much more etrimental in the long term).

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

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http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=3707

Does this strike you as a team that struggles to validate the stiffness of its structures..?

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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They have some great facilities there. Thank you for that link :)



But they do need two 12 axis rigs (4 corner rigs) for front and rear suspension at the same time on the same chassis before they can test the chassis torsional rigidity throughout its length.


They said a 7 post rig won't do that, I think that is where their problem may be - chassis twist entering/leaving a corner that screws up the floor. With the knowledge of F1 teams these days, the problem (if there is one - I think there is) will lie in a dynamic motion with multiple questions being asked of the chassis at the same time.




When they say the car is not consistent I tend to believe that the lack of consistency is coming from an inconsistent structure, not inconsistent aerodynamics from a 'rigid' shape. After all, the aero-characteristic time periods involved are extremely short, and for all intentions and purposes, the aero-forces can be considered constant (obviously across a reasonable time discretion).

If there was a large scale vortex shedding occuring, I could see where a cyclic loading of a wing would be occuring, but I don't believe the vortices involved in F1 cars are big enough to have a long enough shedding time.



Although then again... 'cos I'm more comfortable with aerodynamics, I'll just dump the problem on the structures guys... fecking voodoo magic that :lol: :lol:

MrT
MrT
1
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 11:32

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It's interesting you mentioned that the pushrod mounts to the upright. Scarbs do you know if there is much of a lateral offset of the mounting point from the effective steer axis? Also do you know if they run that setup at each race or just specific ones? Any photos? Lateral offsets produce a front ride height change with steer due to an effective pushrod length change and can therefore be used to lower the front wing into greater ground effect with high steer angles to move the center of aerodynamic pressure forward in tight corners (larger steer angles). If there is a longlitudinal offset the design can be used to adjust diagonal weight transfer which again can be used to affect the handling balance at different stages of the corner. A rearward offset will decrease the the front weight transfer (and increase the rear due to the diagonal nature) for a given steer angle, whilst a forward offset will increase fron WT and decrease rear.

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

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It's interesting you mentioned that the pushrod mounts to the upright. Scarbs do you know if there is much of a lateral offset of the mounting point from the effective steer axis? Also do you know if they run that setup at each race or just specific ones? Any photos? Lateral offsets produce a front ride height change with steer due to an effective pushrod length change and can therefore be used to lower the front wing into greater ground effect with high steer angles to move the center of aerodynamic pressure forward in tight corners (larger steer angles). If there is a longlitudinal offset the design can be used to adjust diagonal weight transfer which again can be used to affect the handling balance at different stages of the corner. A rearward offset will decrease the the front weight transfer (and increase the rear due to the diagonal nature) for a given steer angle, whilst a forward offset will increase fron WT and decrease rear.
Yes most teams adopt this layout, there is some offset with the mounting onboard of the steer axis, I don’t know if the offset is a set up parameter for different tracks.

http://www.scarbsf1.com/RBT_Upright.jpg