2015 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir

[Wayne DR]

Also, regarding Kimi's strong middle stint on the medium tyres. This is nothing new, really. Anyone with doubts over the OPO strategy should just watch last years race when Rosberg was precisely on the same strategy vs. Lewis on OOP and they will see that even then, the prime tyre did a wonderful job in the middle stint. Last year too, I think the OPO strategy was the better strategy. The end to the race with the safety car just made us forget that.

That was kind of my point I suppose, the Mercs were always faster (only JUST, but even 0.1s per lap is enough) than the Ferraris on the same tyre.

The OPO strategy was always going to be the best one, and Ferrari suckered both Mercedes drivers into a OOP strategy to cover off Vettel, which effectively handing Kimi the "win" (...if only he pitted a lap or two earlier for his second stop...).

[Unc1eM0nty]

Also, regarding Kimi's strong middle stint on the medium tyres. This is nothing new, really. Anyone with doubts over the OPO strategy should just watch last years race when Rosberg was precisely on the same strategy vs. Lewis on OOP and they will see that even then, the prime tyre did a wonderful job in the middle stint. Last year too, I think the OPO strategy was the better strategy. The end to the race with the safety car just made us forget that.

That was kind of my point I suppose, the Mercs were always faster (only JUST, but even 0.1s per lap is enough) than the Ferraris on the same tyre.

The OPO strategy was always going to be the best one, and Ferrari suckered both Mercedes drivers into a OOP strategy to cover off Vettel, which effectively handing Kimi the "win" (...if only he pitted a lap or two earlier for his second stop...).

I don't think you could say that Merc were "suckered" into into OOP, they won, and were within a whisker of getting a 1 - 2.

As for OPO always being the best one, I don't remember this being talked about before the race, all the talk from the paddock (and these boards) was that the option was the best race tyre.

The OOP strategy won the race, any talk about another route begin faster seem a little silly to me.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Interesting race, more so for its implications for the rest of the season.

Mercedes has outright single lap pace and I think they’ll retain that advantage, to a greater or lesser degree, through the season.no way to know this,it all depends on how much ferrari improves over the season along with how much mercedes improves

Ferrari seems to have an advantage with how it handles the tyres. So, depending on the track it could make certain strategies work better for it than Mercedes, meaning better race pace.fair enough

I was surprised though that Ferrari couldn’t get past the Williams, even with only a moderate tyre advantage. This doesn’t bode particularly well for Ferrari for the rest of the season; even if the red cars are faster than the Mercedes due to better tyre management and/or strategy, they may not have enough to get past

suspect logic...this is the same ferrari that has blown the williams away in every race this year...the ferrari has already passed the mercs on track more than once... dont take one instance in one race with specific circumstances and use it to make a decision about the rest of the season
vettel got out of the pits after he changed his front wing and set quite a few blistering laps second fastest lap in the race actually then he caught bottas...and got stuck behind him... vettels excuse was that following bottas that close with already worn tires ruined his tires and he didnt have enough to pass ... who knows

Read it properly man. One lap pace means, qualifying and Ferrari is yet to beat Merc for pole.
Other than beating the slow starting Merc off the start and overtaking a car with break failure, when was the last time a Ferrari genuinely overtook a Merc on track? Can't recall from Australia, strategic move in Malaysia, again cannot recall from China, neither from Bahrain. So, are we watching two different seasons?
When an overtake happens in like for like scenarios, similar fuel loads, similar tyre and life etc., then it is can qualify for being the performance differentiator. When a car with new tyres goes and overtakes a car with 15 laps older tyres, that is not performance differentiator. It is just a no brainer, normal racing instance.

[Andres125sx]

Is there any special topic on this forum for FA? I would likely fill it with dozens of links. I can't argue in this topic.

So you can say FA is a political cancer in this topic, but when someone ask you for some quote wich supports that statement, then you can´t argue in this topic...

[Richard]

Is there any special topic on this forum for FA? I would likely fill it with dozens of links.

Sure! We have one here just for you http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... ead#unread

[iotar__]

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/04/21/ ... -incident/ 'Josef Leberer has played down reports he was almost struck by Kimi Raikkonen’s Ferrari in Bahrain." "Rumours had swirled in the media centre that Leberer, the well-known Sauber trainer, only narrowly managed to leap clear of the wayward Ferrari. “I had to jump back a little bit,” Leberer told Finland’s Turun Sanomat newspaper, “but it didn’t really frighten me."

So don't tell me it's against a team or a particular driver, no it's against alternative reality called F1. They put a safety car every time they hear a word crane but this is not a problem, that's not what happened to Bianchi so sod it. Same for wheels, Australia - one thing, Bahrain another. They're not touching Vettel's wobbly wheel because it was securely attached. Fine, unless a smart driver gets himself into collision when it's less secure than usual, is it not? Not a crane or speeding 0,2s under SC so only a fool would react.

[iotar__]

Also, regarding Kimi's strong middle stint on the medium tyres. This is nothing new, really. Anyone with doubts over the OPO strategy should just watch last years race when Rosberg was precisely on the same strategy vs. Lewis on OOP and they will see that even then, the prime tyre did a wonderful job in the middle stint. Last year too, I think the OPO strategy was the better strategy. The end to the race with the safety car just made us forget that.

That was kind of my point I suppose, the Mercs were always faster (only JUST, but even 0.1s per lap is enough) than the Ferraris on the same tyre.

The OPO strategy was always going to be the best one, and Ferrari suckered both Mercedes drivers into a OOP strategy to cover off Vettel, which effectively handing Kimi the "win" (...if only he pitted a lap or two earlier for his second stop...).

Look they brought 2014 BS back to this thread. It just can't die . "Better strategy" OPO? Like in 2014? Start and finish of a discussion: different car versus different car (aka apples to oranges) and different tyres. Do you remember a race like Malaysia last season? Not to mention reaction to the other driver playing its part and Vettel not being there later, handy - one driver less (team-mate, which can be good or bad but still one driver).

Edit to avoid multiplying posts: it's classic working backwards from result and ignoring facts (this time track position). Ferrari didn't "sucker" anyone, pitting earlier worked, Vettel (leading Ferr driver) got in front TWICE. They didn't do it fool Merc, no need they all know they can have two strategies. So it's hamilton, rosberg, vette in sequence which one gets mediums after first stop and what happens then when he's in front of Raikkonen but slower and two in front are driving into a distance? Your OPO best strategy.

[Phil]

About the OPO being possibly better than OOP, lets revisit some 2014 data:

posted by Stradivarus in the 2014 topic:

Code: Select all

Rosberg                 Hamilton           Gap
17 1:41.455             17 1:41.802        0.550
18 1:42.587             18 1:42.621        0.516
19 1:43.965             19 P 1:46.545     -2.064
20 1:41.442             20 1:59.311      -19.933
21 P 1:44.439           21 1:39.765      -15.259
22 2:01.019             22 1:39.666        6.094
23 1:39.886             23 1:40.357        5.623
24 1:40.178             24 1:39.743        6.058

Taken from www.fia.com

Unfortunately that's all the data I can find. However, on lap 24, Rosberg got the message "So you’re currently quicker than Lewis. You’re on mediums, he’s on softs. So remember, looking after the tyres on the stint.". This graphic is also helpful:



It shows crucially, that Rosberg was slightly slower between lap 25 and 38 (before the yellow and consequent safety car period), but not to the extend everyone was expecting. From the above data, we can deduct that at the beginning of that stint, the gap was somewhere between 6 seconds. At the end of the stint and before the safety car, he extended this gap to ~10 seconds.

So easy simple math; Lap 24 gap 6 seconds - to lap 38 gap ~10 seconds, so we have a difference of 4/14 = ~.289s per lap. This is of course, Hamilton conserving his options to extend the life of his tyres and keep wear at a minumum and Rosberg simply driving on the more durable tyre. If I recall correctly and accoarding to Wikipedia, the option-tyre was estimated to be around ~1 second a lap faster than the prime. This stint showed that for whatever reason, Hamilton was only ~.289s per lap quicker, either because he was conserving them, or because the prime tyre held up better under the conditions.

Now, lets fast forward to 2015 and compare Kimi and Lewis, both running in clean air on different tyres and similar circumstances - the former conserving and the latter using the prime tyres as intended:

Code: Select all

Hamilton                Raikoennen          Gap
15 PIT                  15 1:40.973
16 IN-LAP               16 1:40.898
17 1:38.145             17 PIT                  
18 1:39.061             18 IN-LAP        
##################################################
19 1:39.284             19 1:38.403         13.073
20 1:39.394             20 1:38.688         12.367
21 1:38.819             21 1:39.193         12.741
22 1:39.023             22 1:39.013        
23 1:39.085             23 1:38.986        
24 1:39.161             24 1:39.017        
25 1:38.919             25 1:39.101
26 1:39.185             26 1:39.171
27 1:39.408             27 1:39.398
28 1:39.356             28 1:39.389
29 1:39.453             29 1:39.606
30 1:39.533             30 1:39.733
31 1:39.451             31 1:39.995         13.576
32 1:39.551             32 1:39.565         13.590
##################################################
33 PIT                  33 1:39.509
34 IN-LAP               34 1:39.450
35 1:38.217             35 1:39.632
36 1:38.242             36 1:39.884
37 1:37.906             37 1:39.591
38 1:37.857             38 1:39.665
39 1:39.009             39 1:40.684
40 1:39.291             40 PIT

If we look at this data, during the time Hamilton was on his 2nd stint, without the pit and in/out laps, he and Kimi were give or take exactly as quick as each other. Lap 19 the gap was 13.073, Lap 32, the gap was 13.590 - so Kimi lost over those 13 laps half a second.

0.5 / 13 laps = 0.038s per lap Hamilton was quicker.

Now, of course, Hamilton was in the lead and conserving his tyres. Right until the moment he pitted (to cover the undercut from Vettel), he was doing consistent 1:39.5 laps. This shows clearly that Mercedes was reacting to what Ferrari was doing and pitting before they had to. We can deduct from this that Mercedes either had the pace to run longer than they did, or do quicker lap deltas for a shorter stint. The conclusion therefore is that Hamilton was not driving to either the tyres limit and had more pace, but it also shows that the prime tyre held up very well, as it already did in 2014 when Rosberg was on it vs. Hamilton who wasn't.

Was OPO better than OOP? Hard to tell, because you are always going to compare it with the leader driving in a conserving manner to be maximize his stint and be able to react. I think the above data clearly highlights that OPO is not necessarely slower than OOP on this track. By using the option tyre on the last stint, you have the benefit that you can really use them on a light car - however using them on your first or 2nd stint, you will have to drive with minimum wear in mind to not cut your stints too short.

IMO this also concludes that Mercedes did not have worse pace or worse tyre wear than Ferrari. Comparing equal stints to equal stints on equal tyres (Rosberg vs Hamilton vs Vettel), Mercedes could match pace and stint with Ferrari. Comparing it to Kimi is difficult because he wasn't on identical tyres after the 2nd stint, so any comparison is always going to be a wash.

[giantfan10]

Interesting race, more so for its implications for the rest of the season.

Mercedes has outright single lap pace and I think they’ll retain that advantage, to a greater or lesser degree, through the season.no way to know this,it all depends on how much ferrari improves over the season along with how much mercedes improves

Ferrari seems to have an advantage with how it handles the tyres. So, depending on the track it could make certain strategies work better for it than Mercedes, meaning better race pace.fair enough

I was surprised though that Ferrari couldn’t get past the Williams, even with only a moderate tyre advantage. This doesn’t bode particularly well for Ferrari for the rest of the season; even if the red cars are faster than the Mercedes due to better tyre management and/or strategy, they may not have enough to get past

suspect logic...this is the same ferrari that has blown the williams away in every race this year...the ferrari has already passed the mercs on track more than once... dont take one instance in one race with specific circumstances and use it to make a decision about the rest of the season
vettel got out of the pits after he changed his front wing and set quite a few blistering laps second fastest lap in the race actually then he caught bottas...and got stuck behind him... vettels excuse was that following bottas that close with already worn tires ruined his tires and he didnt have enough to pass ... who knows

Read it properly man. One lap pace means, qualifying and Ferrari is yet to beat Merc for pole.
Other than beating the slow starting Merc off the start and overtaking a car with break failure, when was the last time a Ferrari genuinely overtook a Merc on track? Can't recall from Australia, strategic move in Malaysia, again cannot recall from China, neither from Bahrain. So, are we watching two different seasons?
When an overtake happens in like for like scenarios, similar fuel loads, similar tyre and life etc., then it is can qualify for being the performance differentiator. When a car with new tyres goes and overtakes a car with 15 laps older tyres, that is not performance differentiator. It is just a no brainer, normal racing instance.

i read it just fine .. mercedes has the single lap pace over ferrari right now ... what i said still stands... who knows what the ferrari upgrades will do.. same for the merc updates.
so rosberg overtaking vettel was par for the course and not a performance differentiator because both times he was on fresher tires and both times he had the benefit of DRS .. ok got it.....
where i come from when a car finishes ahead of another, the car up front was faster.. in malaysia ferrai was faster than mercedes, ditto for mercedes in australia,china and bahrain.
team A chose the strategy that was fastest for them and ran it .. ditto for team B whoever ends up in first at the end of the day was the fastest car that day.. who was on what tire and bla bla bla is great for arguements but doesnt really matter... the end result is what matters.

[Earnard Beccelstone]

Interesting race, more so for its implications for the rest of the season.

Mercedes has outright single lap pace and I think they’ll retain that advantage, to a greater or lesser degree, through the season.

no way to know this,it all depends on how much ferrari improves over the season along with how much mercedes improves

That's why I said "I suspect". It's a tentative position based on inference over the last four races, not a claim of knowledge.

I was surprised though that Ferrari couldn’t get past the Williams, even with only a moderate tyre advantage. This doesn’t bode particularly well for Ferrari for the rest of the season; even if the red cars are faster than the Mercedes due to better tyre management and/or strategy, they may not have enough to get past

suspect logic...this is the same ferrari that has blown the williams away in every race this year...the ferrari has already passed the mercs on track more than once... dont take one instance in one race with specific circumstances and use it to make a decision about the rest of the season

The fact that Ferrari has "blown away" Williams in every other race so far this season is why it is worrying. Generally, Ferrari have qualified ahead and been racing ahead of the Williams cars so far in 2015.

This means that they haven't been forced to pass a car with superior straight-line speed too often this season. Which is why I'm concerned

Vettle has generally passed the Mercedes when he's had the advantage of significantly fresher rubber.

vettel got out of the pits after he changed his front wing and set quite a few blistering laps second fastest lap in the race actually then he caught bottas...and got stuck behind him... vettels excuse was that following bottas that close with already worn tires ruined his tires and he didnt have enough to pass ... who knows

So, when they're tyres were roughly equivalent (same compound, Vettel's were four laps younger) the Ferrari had trouble passing a quick Mercedes-powered car.

Vettel was about 2 seconds a lap quicker than Bottas once he caught him, on tyres that were just four laps old. That he couldn't get past him with this speed advantage is potentially troubling for the rest of the season.

[giantfan10]

i suppose thats your opinion(vettel and bottas) i dont agree so we can agree to disagree about if it has any bearing on the season to come.
i dont think its the first time we have seen a faster car stuck behind a slower car and not being able to pass... alonso in a ferrari with hamilton in a mercedes at the hungarian GP... how much bearing did that have on the rest of the season?
the williams had just enough traction and was just fast enough on the straight to stay just ahead of the ferrari in the only place we saw any passes between the front runners in the entire race.. the front straight and corner 1..it is what it is for the bahrain GP

[evered7]

Vettel explains his struggles in Bahrain GP. Seems reasonable and giving answer as to why he was not able to close in and pass Bottas.
http://formula1.ferrari.com/en/sebastia ... rfect-day/

[Phil]

I think the reason Rosberg could easily pass the Ferraris was simply because both Vettel and Raikoennen were fast asleep. On neither of the two passes did the Ferrari cover the inside line, as they should have if they had taken the attack seriously. Then the 3rd overtake, Vettel made the huge mistake and that was that. The overtake Hamilton on Kimi was a no-brainer as Kimi's tyres were way off, so the speed differential was quite big.

It would have been nice to see the Ferraris put up a bit of a fight when they were being challenged by Rosberg to see how easy or not it would have been able to pass them.

[giantfan10]

I think the reason Rosberg could easily pass the Ferraris was simply because both Vettel and Raikoennen were fast asleep. On neither of the two passes did the Ferrari cover the inside line, as they should have if they had taken the attack seriously. Then the 3rd overtake, Vettel made the huge mistake and that was that. The overtake Hamilton on Kimi was a no-brainer as Kimi's tyres were way off, so the speed differential was quite big.

It would have been nice to see the Ferraris put up a bit of a fight when they were being challenged by Rosberg to see how easy or not it would have been able to pass them.

James allen on F1 has an excellent piece on if raikonnen could have won the race but buried in that article he explained exactly why vettel after undercutting rosberg was repassed that easily... the answer my friend is ERS.
he explains:
"In order to make the undercut you have to push the tyres very hard on the opening lap, which overheats them and causes problems later in the stint and you also deplete the ERS battery fully.This leaves you vulnerable on the following lap, when the car you’ve just undercut now has the new tyre advantage and he’s got a full ERS battery to deploy on the main straight
This scenario is precisely what happened on Lap 15, when Rosberg re-passed Vettel as they came down the straight, with Hamilton exiting the pits ahead. That overtake was all about Rosberg having full ERS power to deploy and Vettel still recuperating from his fast out lap."

[nacho]

I think Rosberg pass on Kimi was tough, with a Pastor it would have been carbon fibre carnage.