2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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Moose
Moose
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Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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mrluke wrote:You can't change the amount of money the top teams spend.

They have their budget and they will spend every penny of it.

With very tight rules you have to spend millions to gain fractions of a second. With more open rules it is possible to gain a significant chunk of time without having to spend as much.

Open rules could make the lower teams more competitive for the money they spend, as it would reward ideas rather than finances. But its going to have no impact at all on the higher teams budgets.
Being able to gain significant chunks of time without having to spend much is precisely the problem. All that means is that Ferrari, Mercedes and RedBull will gain many significant chunks of time, while Williams and Force India will gain fewer.

Gaining many significant chunks of time leads to a bigger gap than gaining many very small chunks of time.

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dans79
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Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
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Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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Moose wrote: What makes you think that?

As far as I'm concerned, it's very clear that it would increase the delta that money would make. The top teams have a fixed amount of cash to spend, and will spend it. If they have lots of places to develop, they will develop in all of those places, and grab the easy pickings from them. Constraining them to a few specific places to develop will cause them to go deep, and get into diminishing returns. The result is that by giving more areas of development you shift everyone closer to zero on a logarithmic curve, and as a result cause an increased gap between someone with lots of cash and someone with little cash.
Andres125sx wrote:Moose explained it perfectly, but I wonder how can you think with more fields it would be cheaper.....

Teams would save part of his money because they´d be lazy to start a new development line?
I think it, because i have seen it several times in various engineering related fields. No teams budget is infinite, and neither is the time table it has to work with, or the expertise of it's employees. The budget has to be spent wisely, and investigating every avenue is not a wise way of spend money. Some avenues will be dead ends, some will have long lead times, and some will conflict with other avenues.

This has played out over several decades in the aero-space industry. Take the Boeing x-32 vs the Lockheed Martin x-35 for example. Boeing lost out to the much smaller Lockheed, because it followed the wrong avenues.
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Moose
Moose
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Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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dans79 wrote:I think it, because i have seen it several times in various engineering related fields. No teams budget is infinite, and neither is the time table it has to work with, or the expertise of it's employees. The budget has to be spent wisely, and investigating every avenue is not a wise way of spend money. Some avenues will be dead ends, some will have long lead times, and some will conflict with other avenues.
Right, this is all very true, but if you can afford to follow 10 avenues, and another team can afford to follow 1, it's far more likely that the team following 10 avenues will find the one (or multiple) that have good benefits. More likely, the one following 10 avenues will find significant gains in all 10 avenues they investigate, and each of them will be equivalent to the gain one team found.
This has played out over several decades in the aero-space industry. Take the Boeing x-32 vs the Lockheed Martin x-35 for example. Boeing lost out to the much smaller Lockheed, because it followed the wrong avenues.
This is no where near the disparity found in F1 teams (if any disparity at all). Boeing's revenue is only double that of Lockheed Martin's. More so, Boeing is a company that does many more things than Lockheed does, all of it's revenues are not spent on designing military equipment. Instead, large amounts (the majority in fact) is spent on commercial jets. It's actually extremely likely that Lockheed Martin spent more on the X-35 than Boeing spent on the X-32 (although we'll never know the exact figures).

Meanwhile, Ferrari can afford to spend literally 10 times as much developing an F1 car as Manor F1 can. Simply put, your example isn't actually an example of the scenario we're looking at in F1.

ChrisF1
ChrisF1
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Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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iotar__ wrote:
Sniffit wrote:Grosjan.. What an idiot.. "He hit me! He hit me!"

No he didn't, you hit him and lost your points.. Nice way to end an otherwise great weekend, feel sorry for his team.
Nonsense. Grosjean got a penalty for Stevens not getting out of the way? Remember when Vettel drove into Karthikeyan in Malaysia and they gave the latter a penalty, 20 s or something like that? So that was causing a collision and Ricciardo Monaco wasn't, against a lapped car??
I'll just leave this here....
Lotus Formula 1 driver Romain Grosjean has apologised to Manor's Will Stevens after triggering a collision between the pair during the Canadian Grand Prix.

Grosjean drifted into the path of Stevens after lapping him on the run to the final chicane in Montreal, damaging the front wing of the Manor-run Marussia and earning a penalty.

The apology happened in the Austrian GP paddock on Thursday, after Grosjean had seen the footage of the incident.

"I went to apologise because I messed up," said Grosjean. "It was all OK [after the apology].

"I killed a big part of my race, but I broke his front wing as well.

"Even though they are fighting at the back, they are still trying to do their best so it wasn't very nice of me to turn into him.

"It was just a failure of concentration; when you lap a car, it's fairly easy to forget it.

"That corner is a tricky one and I was just focusing on the apex; I didn't even realise I was turning left.

"Then I saw the reply and thought 'oh, that was bad'. It's something you learn from and try not to do again."

Stevens accepted Grosjean's apology and, after calling for more respect from drivers in faster cars in the wake of the clash, insists the incident is now behind them.

"He came up to me today to apologise," said Stevens.

"It was good of him because it was a racing incident.

"It should never happen, but it was just one of those things.

"He obviously thought I was more out of the way was, but I was as far over as I could be.

"It's good that he apologised and I respect him for that.

"Now we can move on and forget about it."

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iotar__
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Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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I don't care what Grosjean says, I'm not here for his amusement. He might as well apologise to the team for driving in one practice session per weekend or to Palmer for taking his place. It's still ignoring blue flags and driving with eyes closed by a backmarker incident.

As for the team itself Permane was very close to apologising on twitter for Verstappen crashing into Grosjean and getting himself grid penalty.

ChrisF1
ChrisF1
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013, 21:48

Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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iotar__ wrote:I don't care what Grosjean says, I'm not here for his amusement. He might as well apologise to the team for driving in one practice session per weekend or to Palmer for taking his place. It's still ignoring blue flags and driving with eyes closed by a backmarker incident.

As for the team itself Permane was very close to apologising on twitter for Verstappen crashing into Grosjean and getting himself grid penalty.
You (and you alone) really think it was still Stevens' fault?

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Chuckjr
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Joined: 24 Feb 2012, 08:34
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Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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Wow, quiet race thread.

I think it's interesting that as the pressure begins to mount from Ferrari, the Merc boys are finding themselves pushing a bit too hard. This pattern of panic revealed in this team when pressure is applied may be interesting should the threat from Ferrari keep intensifying.
Watching F1 since 1986.

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Jordan44
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Joined: 20 Jun 2014, 17:06

Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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Chuckjr wrote:Wow, quiet race thread.

I think it's interesting that as the pressure begins to mount from Ferrari, the Merc boys are finding themselves pushing a bit too hard. This pattern of panic revealed in this team when pressure is applied may be interesting should the threat from Ferrari keep intensifying.
The only real sign of pressure was Hamilton's sector three mistake, which he did last year as well. Nothing to do with Ferrari being close, simply him not quite mastering the track yet or pushing too hard.

Ferrari wont be giving them a sleepless night at this stage in the weekend, they sleep knowing they always find more time overnight than Ferrari and are quite a bit quicker on the long runs in the race than they are in practise sessions.

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mikeerfol
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Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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"Canadian Grand Prix" :P

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Chuckjr
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Joined: 24 Feb 2012, 08:34
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Re: 2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

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Whoops. You're correct. I meant to post in the Austrian GP thread. My bad.
Watching F1 since 1986.