Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[nb84]

As a new member I thought I too will throw in my two cents . I've been a fan of Formula 1 for a number of years, though its been the past several where I've taken a keener interest. Blindly aware of the political issues in Formula 1 this however, has been crazy.

On the issue, the bottom line was that this event proceeded to determine whether the documentation had been used and in turn it was proven so. Though the punishment is valid, its the extent of which that I found a little strong. I too would've found the docking of points to be enough. The driver issuse is of interest as well and serves for debate, but i've had enough.

I finish though by hoping that we don't forget how they recieved this information.

However, on to spa,

[Sawtooth-spike]

anybody notice at no point has Lewis been mentioned?

I know if they were car improvements that came from the document it would effect him, but if it was setup info it seems only 2 drivers made the most of it.

Seems Mclaren did play dirty.... but if its so clean and clear how would Mclaren have any ground for appeal. As a wise man once said, the Truth is a 3 edge sword, your side, there side and the truth.

Still annoys me that Mclaren play dirty and this happens, but when other teams do it they seem to be allowed too.

[bar555]

Does anyone know anything about the gas tyre that Ferrari uses and Mc Laren tested ? As far as i know the tyre gas is a mixture that contains mainly nitrogen .

[manchild]

viewtopic.php?t=4680

I've expected scarbs of all people to be at least a bit more neutral. His waving with number of evidence pages of data Mclaren used is very hypocrite. He as well as many other forum members are ignoring simple, proven, official fact that STR did not use just partial data of RBR but absolutely each and every detail of RBR blueprints and what did FIA do about it? Nothing!

What about number of pages of data SA took from Honda's RA106? What did FIA do about that? Nothing!

What did FIA do with Toyota after two former Ferrari engineers were sentenced and jailed for taking out CDs with data? Nothing!

Concorde agreement and if I'm not mistaken FIA sporting regulations leave no possibility of legal possession of other teams blueprints. You can't buy them and you can sell them. If you have them you have them illegally.

If Mclaren is punished so severely for using Ferrari data why isn't STR punished for using absolutely all existing RBR data? Why isn't SA punished for using Honda data? Why isn't Toyota punished for using Ferrari data?

I don't deny that Mclaren had those data and that it is illegal but STR, SA and Toyota had immeasurably much more data from other teams and they go unpunished for years.

Why? Because their punishment wouldn't give Ferrari a WCC title.

[bhall]

That's comparing apples to oranges. McLaren using secret Ferrari information is not the same as RBR/STR being the same company and doing something that in a year's time will be commonplace. The same can be said for the relationship between Honda and Super Aguri.

Toyota came in 8th place during the year they had Ferrari information, while Ferrari themselves won the World Championship. If they used that information, they certainly didn't seem to gain much of an advantage, and they certainly aren't reaping any benefits now. That cannot be said about McLaren.

Yes, this current debacle was handled poorly - but what in the F1 world isn't? - but in the end, justice was done.

[modbaraban]

....williams was running a cleverly hidden sandwich chassis in the begining of the decade and no1 did anything about it because ferrari picked it up and they werent threatened.

Can anyone clarify what that means? What is that, and why is that illegal?

[manchild]

That's comparing apples to oranges. McLaren using secret Ferrari information is not the same as RBR/STR being the same company and doing something that in a year's time will be commonplace. The same can be said for the relationship between Honda and Super Aguri.

but in the end, justice was done.

If that's your viewpoint about the respect of law and truth than I'm deeply sorry for wasting time to clear up things.

Please quote me a regulation or a part from Concorde agreement where "being same company" and "doing something that in a year's time will be commonplace" is considered as excuse that overrides the official regulations and other signed documents?

That is the problem my friend. FIA is breaking and ignoring rules and agreements they wrote themselves. That's the top of illegality in F1. There are no "so whats", "maybes", "will be so why nots" in the law. Are you Ferrari fans only in search for the truth that satisfies your needs or the truth in general?

I'm not even Mclaren fan but I'm busting my balls to prove how other teams are cheating much worse than Mclaren and go unpunished. It doesn't influence Ferrari at all but you won't allow it despite that and give worthless excuses. Why?

I wouldn't mind if they've even banned Mclaren for 2 seasons IF previously they've banned Toyota years ago, than STR in 2006 and SA in 2007 but you obviously would. At least that's the impression I get.

Position those teams scored is absolutely irrelevant. In fair countries, organizations, sprots the law is same for all.

[allan]

I wouldn't mind if they've even banned Mclaren for 2 seasons IF previously they've banned Toyota years ago, than STR in 2006 and SA in 2007

Yeah right...

[djones]

sorry if this has already been posted but...

"On 21 March, de la Rosa emailed Coughlan asking for information about the Ferrari’s weight distribution, saying “it would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator” and adding that “I will be in the simulator tomorrow”.

After receiving a reply by text message, he then emailed Alonso four days later setting out Ferrari’s weight distribution to two decimal places on each of the Maranello team’s cars for the Australian Grand Prix.

When Alonso questioned the reliability of the data, de la Rosa replied: “All the information from Ferrari is very reliable.

“It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic – I don’t know what place he holds now.

“He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi [Raikkonen] was stopping in lap 18.

“He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer, and he told him that.”"

and

In the emails to Alonso, de la Rosa also discussed a flexible rear wing which he said was “a copy of the system we think Ferrari uses”, specified the Ferrari’s precise aero balance at 250 kph and referred to a gas the Italian team used to inflate its tyres so as to reduce blistering.

Alonso replied that it was “very important” that McLaren test the gas that Ferrari was using in its tyres as “they have something different from the rest”, and “not only this year…there is something else and this may be the key; let’s hope we can test it during the test, and that we can make it a priority!”

How can ANYBODY stick up for Mclaren on this forum after just these few paragraphs???

THEY ARE DIRTY CHEATS

All drivers points should be stripped and Alonso should be banned for at least 2 more seasons. It's a complete joke!!

[manchild]

Ok kids, I'm really off. Being sincere really doesn't pay off here. Some people are just not worth wasting time on.

Enjoy nazi F1! Sieg Heil!

[Torso]

McLarens drivers should be stripped of their championship points now that we know the current McLaren has got it`s advantages stolen from the data owned by Ferrari. And it also apears that at a point McLaren even knew the refuelling-strategi of Ferrari for a race...ref Alonso!!

Neither Alonso or Hamilton are worthy champions. It is a disgrace that McLaren is allowed to win the drivers title (wich is the one that really counts) like this.

Dennis has no honour. If he had he would pull his team out and never return. His team has no place in motorsport anymore.

GET LOST CHEATERS!!




Remember in 1997. MS was penalized for deliberately crashing into JV. The penalty was a full exclution from the WDC. Now that was 1 incident in 1 race! This is almost a full seasons worth of data and information available to both the technicians and the drivers in McLaren.

The FIA has clearly NOT imposed a grave enough penalty!!!

[Sawtooth-spike]

McLarens drivers should be stripped of their championship points now that we know the current McLaren has got it`s advantages stolen from the data owned by Ferrari.

Neither Alonso or Hamilton are worthy champions. It is a disgrace that McLaren is allowed to win the drivers title (wich is the one that really counts) like this.

Dennis has no honour. If he had he would pull his team out and never return. His team has no place in motorsport anymore.

GET LOST CHEATERS!!

No honour?

Read this then say that


http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40673

I Think that takes a true sports man to admit to something like this. becasue if we wanted to cover it up he could of tryed

[djones]

Sawtooth,

I disagree. Dennis knew full well his team was going to be found guilty and he knew they were guilty.

This is purely a PR stunt to try and make them look not quite so bad!

If I were Ron I would have done the same thing.

He didn't do this until the very end. He knew this was going on from the start but only admitted it when the game was up!!

[AeroGT3]

I've expected scarbs of all people to be at least a bit more neutral. His waving with number of evidence pages of data Mclaren used is very hypocrite. He as well as many other forum members are ignoring simple, proven, official fact that STR did not use just partial data of RBR but absolutely each and every detail of RBR blueprints and what did FIA do about it? Nothing!

What about number of pages of data SA took from Honda's RA106? What did FIA do about that? Nothing!

What did FIA do with Toyota after two former Ferrari engineers were sentenced and jailed for taking out CDs with data? Nothing!

Concorde agreement and if I'm not mistaken FIA sporting regulations leave no possibility of legal possession of other teams blueprints. You can't buy them and you can sell them. If you have them you have them illegally.

If Mclaren is punished so severely for using Ferrari data why isn't STR punished for using absolutely all existing RBR data? Why isn't SA punished for using Honda data? Why isn't Toyota punished for using Ferrari data?

I don't deny that Mclaren had those data and that it is illegal but STR, SA and Toyota had immeasurably much more data from other teams and they go unpunished for years.

Why? Because their punishment wouldn't give Ferrari a WCC title.

What a rubbish post.

If no team can have any other teams' data, then how the hell do teams supply engines to others? Do they just mail them an engine without ANY information or data on it?

Your bias against Ferrari is perpetually embedded in your posts.

[tomislavp4]

Engine is one thing while the whole car is another