2015 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi, October 09-11

[Silent Storm]

Raikkonen and Bottas incident.. For some reason I find it similar to Ricciardo on Raikkonen in Monaco.
https://twitter.com/iceman7news/status/ ... 2795996160

Then you need to go back and watch it again, Ricciardo actual got his car fully along side at Monaco!

Maybe you need a second look at Ricciardo's move. Some people said Kimi tried to close the door but same can be said of Bottas he tried to close the door on Kimi.
http://youtu.be/3lWrGCixIac

[mcalex]

I you watch the Kimi Bottas video frame by frame you will see Kimi was more than enough inside and there was enough distance for Bottas to avoid zhe collision. As for Ric vs Kimi RIC stung inside where Kimi was already turning in and he was WAY behind

[sAx]

I you watch the Kimi Bottas video frame by frame you will see Kimi was more than enough inside and there was enough distance for Bottas to avoid zhe collision. As for Ric vs Kimi RIC stung inside where Kimi was already turning in and he was WAY behind

Left front meets right rear and that's far enough alongside....really?

[NathanOlder]

Kimi was way too far back to make a move. He punted Bottas off because he was never going to make the corner himself. If this move was allowed people would be punting people off all the time.
Plus Bottas had no chance of seeing this coming. Kimi wasn't in his mirrors until maybe point of contact. The angle of the 2 cars was vastly different.
Kimi at fault and rightly given a penalty.

[Fulcrum]

The Bottas/Raikkonen collision reminded me of the incident between Magnussen and Massa in Hockenheim 2014.

I think the 'blame it on Kimi' brigade can rightfully be upset by the move, in particular, but random criticism of Raikkonen is unwarranted. He has been penalized, both races were ruined, and Ferrari lost any remaining chance of winning the Constructor's championship.

Kimi is normally an extremely fair driver, probably so fair it actually counted against him in this particular situation. People race him harder than normal because they know he will back off unless he has a better than parity chance of pulling off the move or defending his position. This time he tried something out of character, and we have an accident.

Without doubt, Kimi was being optimistic with the move. Also without doubt, Bottas wasn't aware of where Kimi was; either because the lunge was so late that he couldn't react in time, or because he had already decided Kimi wasn't making a move. Given the way Kimi normally races, I think Bottas must have assumed Kimi wouldn't attempt a pass from such long range, and occupied his normal racing line.

The angle of the corner doesn't help either, as Kimi would have effectively been hidden until appearing on the apex, by which point it was too late anyway.

[turbof1]

Our boards do have a tendency to bash drivers. It became clear in an other topic this is quite indiscriminately. Just that any error made by any driver gets enlarged and painted across the whole wall.

Maybe we should give Kimi a bit more credit, since he does not usually do these kind of silly things. I remember him during a Japanese GP evading a crash in the first corner by lightning fast reactions. So he usually is very much aware of his surroundings and on what the consequences of his moves are. One brain fart isn't going to change that.

[Phil]

Yeah. I think what gets overlooked is that overtaking is much a part of both drivers giving room and being aware of what is happening around them. Sometimes, a driver who is defending might leave more room and make an over ambitious by the overtaker move possible without anyone raising an eye-brow and instead applauding them for an 'epic move'. If that same driver had not left that room and space however, it would have probably been painfully aware that the move was never going to stick.

To be fair, I think Bottas had little ability to prevent it once Kimi committed - he simply realized it too late that Kimi was coming up the inside. Kimi, once he had committed, became a passenger too. Such is racing sometimes. I still agree with the punishment, but I don't think Kimi should be slammed because of it, even if for Bottas, it was an extremely bad outcome to walk away with zero points over what should have been 3rd or 4th at least.

[WaikeCU]

That last lap dive was rather desperate than commited. If he was fully committed, then he would have braked a lot later I think and locked his wheels under braking a lot earlier. It was the last lap, so managing those tires till the finish wouldn't have been an issue as well

[i70q7m7ghw]

[mikeerfol]

That one should go to the caption competition thread

[TAG]

Our boards do have a tendency to bash drivers. It became clear in an other topic this is quite indiscriminately.... Maybe we should give Kimi a bit more credit, since he does not usually do these kind of silly things.

Meh, it's human nature. “Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die.” but to say it's indiscriminate is the exact antithesis of how it's actually dispersed.

[f1316]

I think on balance it was fair to give Kimi the penalty (but also agree that Dani Ric should have got one in Monaco).

But I think you could also argue that if you subscribe to the Senna axiom - "if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver" - then this move embodies that. There was definitely a gap and you want to see drivers take this kind of risk; it's still fair to get a punishment if they don't come off - that's what makes it a risk.

[Moose]

I think on balance it was fair to give Kimi the penalty (but also agree that Dani Ric should have got one in Monaco).

But I think you could also argue that if you subscribe to the Senna axiom - "if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver" - then this move embodies that. There was definitely a gap and you want to see drivers take this kind of risk; it's still fair to get a punishment if they don't come off - that's what makes it a risk.

I completely disagree that there was a gap. At the point at which he was "along side" (F1 definition, front wing next to rear wheel), there already was not a car's width between Bottas' front wheel and the apex. That by definition is "not a gap" (at least not one large enough to put a racing car through).

This for me is the difference between a "dive bomb" and a legitimate overtake. It's nothing to do with how far back you came from, it's about where the overtakee is positioned at the time you got along side. If you get along side down the straight - clearly that's okay. If you get along side in the breaking zone - also okay. If you get along side as they turn in - risky, but okay. If you get along side as they're approaching the apex - that's not okay.

That said, these drivers are making split second decisions. I'm sure that to Kimi it looked like he was in the "risky but okay" category when he decided to try the move. Unfortunately, it turned out to be false, and yeh, the result is, a completely valid penalty, and two upset Finns.

[dans79]

Kimi, wasn't thinking when he made this move period! Bottas is well into his turn and Kimi is still well behind, so the corner was his. It's almost seems as if Kimi thought Bottas would just jump out of the way, and let him by.

[f1316]

I think on balance it was fair to give Kimi the penalty (but also agree that Dani Ric should have got one in Monaco).

But I think you could also argue that if you subscribe to the Senna axiom - "if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver" - then this move embodies that. There was definitely a gap and you want to see drivers take this kind of risk; it's still fair to get a punishment if they don't come off - that's what makes it a risk.

I completely disagree that there was a gap. At the point at which he was "along side" (F1 definition, front wing next to rear wheel), there already was not a car's width between Bottas' front wheel and the apex. That by definition is "not a gap" (at least not one large enough to put a racing car through).

This for me is the difference between a "dive bomb" and a legitimate overtake. It's nothing to do with how far back you came from, it's about where the overtakee is positioned at the time you got along side. If you get along side down the straight - clearly that's okay. If you get along side in the breaking zone - also okay. If you get along side as they turn in - risky, but okay. If you get along side as they're approaching the apex - that's not okay.

That said, these drivers are making split second decisions. I'm sure that to Kimi it looked like he was in the "risky but okay" category when he decided to try the move. Unfortunately, it turned out to be false, and yeh, the result is, a completely valid penalty, and two upset Finns.

Agree that it's a split second decision and if you watch the onboard, the gap on the inside - and we disagree that there isn't one - looks very inviting. Bottas had the choice to give space and avoid an accident; not saying he should have done, the corner was his, but you always have a choice.

All I'm saying is that the penalty was deserved but that I can see why raikonnen was so tempted. I have never agreed with Senna's quote - it's too simplistic - but if you do (and don't forget he said this after deliberately driving into Prost), I personally think this qualifies.