2015 United States Grand Prix - Austin, October 23 - 25

[dans79]

What I don't understand is what Rosberg is thinking during that move. ''Oh wait, Lewis didn't give me any room in Japan but hey let's try again around the outside''. Why not changing your line and even if that doesn't work, he will exit the corner as P2 not P4.

Probably because second corner was to the right, so if he would have managed to stay at the outside, he´d have earned the best position for next corner and could have recovered P1

And that's short sited, because several people went around the outside of turn 2, and got the inside line to turn 3. If your ahead into turn 3, the driver behind has to back off, and can't really make another attempt until at-least turn 10, and more than likely won't have a good chance till the back strait.

[Shrieker]

@ ringo,

You make very valid points.

@GPR,

Senna was no god of morals but the man had charisma. Even with Prost, later on in their careers there was mutual respect. Maybe if it was like today back then with all the cameras and coverage, we would see Berger and him messing around and call it childish. I just would've loved to see Hamilton be magnanimous in victory, and in defeat also.

[Shrieker]

I want to say something about the first turn: Because of the nature of that corner, if you go side by side with some1 there and have the outside line, you'll get a better exit, provided you're given fair space. Hamilton denied Rosberg the opportunity. The rules say crowding out another car beyond track limits isn't allowed. This is not charity i know, but the rules need to be policed and drivers should be warned beforehand what might happen if they don't abide. Being the way he is, Hamilton knew very well this wouldn't get him into trouble so he did it.

[Andres125sx]

What I don't understand is what Rosberg is thinking during that move. ''Oh wait, Lewis didn't give me any room in Japan but hey let's try again around the outside''. Why not changing your line and even if that doesn't work, he will exit the corner as P2 not P4.

Probably because second corner was to the right, so if he would have managed to stay at the outside, he´d have earned the best position for next corner and could have recovered P1

And that's short sited, because several people went around the outside of turn 2, and got the inside line to turn 3. If your ahead into turn 3, the driver behind has to back off, and can't really make another attempt until at-least turn 10, and more than likely won't have a good chance till the back strait.

That´s good thinking from a blank sheet, but he was at the outside of turn 1 with Lewis in the inside blocking him and the whole grid behind, so he had no more options than trying to keep the outside line and earn the position on next corner


Problem is Lewis knew this too so he went wide to prevent it, as any other smart driver would have done. Then you get the usual discussion about how wide you can go to block your oponent, but since most people seems to accept you can push your rivals out of the track if you´re at the inside, then there´s no problem, and that´s what happened

[Postmoe]

People (obviously non-competition drivers) seem to think that because Hamilton didnt wind on more left-hand lock he was deliberatly pushing Rosberg wide. Whereas anyone with an ounce of driving skill knows that if you are understeering just turning the wheel more makes things much worse. You need to try to get the wheels back to a point where they can grip which can mean reducing the amount of steer angle. (this is for RWD though, the same is not always true of front and 4WD cars where you can use the power to pull the front wheels in)

There is always some amount of initial correcting of the trajectory on an understeer situation that was absolutelly absent in this case. So..

... either Hamilton is able to predict understeer before experiencing it.
... either he didn't correct because he was scared he would lock (but, man, this you do with a bike were you can't lock your front in the wet).

Or he just wanted to push Rosberg out, wich he could rationaly try to do with the cars amost in parallel.

Every driver worth their salt can predict when they're going to get under steer. Hamilton did what any decent driver should do when on the inside. Claim the corner and make the person stupid enough to hang around on the outside pay for it and not be able to come back at you. You're not a racing driver if you don't do what Hamilton did.

That's just what I'm saying... only that I consider predicting understeering in wet conditions after a straight is not rationally possible. You can only predict --- will happen easily. It's a wild guess. I doubt F1 cars have front brake sensitivity in those -very cold- conditions.

So any driver worth its salt can predict there's nothing to predict. Hamilton knew it and went wide. He didn't do it because he had massive understeering, but because he knew he would probably have it. It's quite a different scenario in the end, with very different implications.

I really doubt a well seasoned driver like Hamilton did't see it that way the second he felt he was more or less on parallel with Rosberg, who was perhaps a little bit naive.

I spose Nico decided he wanted to say "he pushed me out the track, it's against the regs" instead of just racing.

[dans79]

That´s good thinking from a blank sheet, but he was at the outside of turn 1 with Lewis in the inside blocking him and the whole grid behind, so he had no more options than trying to keep the outside line and earn the position on next corner


Problem is Lewis knew this too so he went wide to prevent it, as any other smart driver would have done. Then you get the usual discussion about how wide you can go to block your oponent, but since most people seems to accept you can push your rivals out of the track if you´re at the inside, then there´s no problem, and that´s what happened

That's why I mentioned earlier that Nico should have stayed closer to the racing line entering turn 1. He then could have inside outed Lewis, and he would of have more speed and the outside line into turn 2.

[Andres125sx]

That´s good thinking from a blank sheet, but he was at the outside of turn 1 with Lewis in the inside blocking him and the whole grid behind, so he had no more options than trying to keep the outside line and earn the position on next corner


Problem is Lewis knew this too so he went wide to prevent it, as any other smart driver would have done. Then you get the usual discussion about how wide you can go to block your oponent, but since most people seems to accept you can push your rivals out of the track if you´re at the inside, then there´s no problem, and that´s what happened

That's why I mentioned earlier that Nico should have stayed closer to the racing line entering turn 1. He then could have inside outed Lewis, and he would of have more speed and the outside line into turn 2.

I agree that´s the best strategy in that situations, but it was a start. For that you must brake a bit earlier than your rival to let him pass so you can take the inner line, but at a start there are too many cars around and braking a bit earlier might mean you loose several positions.

I´m not saying he took best decision, but on a start with your team mate side by side with him in the better side and 18 more cars just behind, any decision will have some flaw

[dans79]

I agree that´s the best strategy in that situations, but it was a start. For that you must brake a bit earlier than your rival to let him pass so you can take the inner line, but at a start there are too many cars around and braking a bit earlier might mean you loose several positions.

I´m not saying he took best decision, but on a start with your team mate side by side with him in the better side and 18 more cars just behind, any decision will have some flaw

I agree it's riskier at a start, but based on the overhead shots, he had room to pull it off.

[Sevach]

Hamilton is a clever boy. He knows that when the Stewards look at the telemetry they are going to be checking the steering angles, the the throttle input and the car's line across the track.... Notice that HAM never turns the wheel to the right...he keeps turning it left.... but veerry slowly... tight enough to say he was taking the turn as it was his inside line, but wide enough to push Rosberg out. This is just hard old school wheel to wheel racing.

For me his move was no different to Vale on Marquez.

A more in control version of Fuji 2008, i would be pushing for a penalty if i was a steaward.

[strad]

Problem is Lewis knew this too so he went wide to prevent it, as any other smart driver would have done.

That should read "What any immoral driver would have done.

[Edax]

I want to say something about the first turn: Because of the nature of that corner, if you go side by side with some1 there and have the outside line, you'll get a better exit, provided you're given fair space. Hamilton denied Rosberg the opportunity. The rules say crowding out another car beyond track limits isn't allowed. This is not charity i know, but the rules need to be policed and drivers should be warned beforehand what might happen if they don't abide. Being the way he is, Hamilton knew very well this wouldn't get him into trouble so he did it.

That argument assumes that the drivers have a large margin for corrections mid-corner. I'd say that if that was the case they are not driving anywhere close to the limit. If you are on the limit the trajectory of the car through the corner is determined at the braking point, as you only have a set distance before you have to get off the brakes and the rules of inertia and grip take over.

The way I see it there are two ways to defend these type of corners from an outside line.
1) Squeeze the guy to the inside, this will compromise his corner entry. This will either force him to brake earlier in which case you have the corner, or he will commit, and run wide at the exit, in which case you can try the cutback.

2) Move further to the outside. This will maximize your corner entry, allows you to brake as late as possible and allows you to run on the outside and carry more speed through to the corner exit. This requires confidence that the other guy doesn't squeeze you out if you end up parallel. If he does then you also have the right to complain since you have given him enough room to run a tight line through the corner.

Rosberg IMHO did a bit of both. It looks to me that Rosberg is about 2 car widths left of where he normally would be at the braking point. He squeezed Hamilton on the straight, but not enough to really compromise his corner. But he also didn't give him enough space to comfortably give him the option of a tighter exit.

The rules of crowding were invented to prevent people who are pursuing option 1 from pushing opponents into the grass, into pitwalls or over the pit exit line. But once mid corner the driver is basically a passenger and the only rule you can enforce there is that thou shall not dive bomb your opponent. While the entry of Hamilton was on the limit it was IMO not reckless.

[lebesset]

I want to say something about the first turn: Because of the nature of that corner, if you go side by side with some1 there and have the outside line, you'll get a better exit, provided you're given fair space. Hamilton denied Rosberg the opportunity. The rules say crowding out another car beyond track limits isn't allowed. This is not charity i know, but the rules need to be policed and drivers should be warned beforehand what might happen if they don't abide. Being the way he is, Hamilton knew very well this wouldn't get him into trouble so he did it.

try reading the rules again ; hamilton had the line and was entitled to take it ; rosberg has got to learn that if he has lost the corner trying to go around the outside only loses more ground when his opponent takes the line he has earned !

[Just_a_fan]

In the same situation at the start, I think Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel would have looked to cut back behind the driver on the inside. Rosberg needs to stop trying to run around the outside in these situations.

[Spoutnik]

For me, Rosberg know the championship is loss. He don't really care about the win because he's not confident in his pace especially without any practise. So again he want to show he's the victim. I'm sorry how many time Lewis (intentionally or not) pushed him wide .. Nico seems to be a clever guys he let Lewis pushed him wide, hoping for an investigation or something like that. And as lot of people said above in this corner you can cut back, if Nico had let Lewis with his understeer, late braking and cold tires, and he brake earlier i'm pretty sure he was 1st.

[bonjon1979]

In the same situation at the start, I think Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel would have looked to cut back behind the driver on the inside. Rosberg needs to stop trying to run around the outside in these situations.

Precisely. Nicos problem is mental, he's so desperate not to give an inch to Hamilton it makes him try moves like this. A cooler head would've squeezed Hamilton and then gone back to the outside of the track before cutting back. Nico hasn't got it up top to challenge Hamilton at the moment. His only hope is that now Lewis has three wdcs he's going to lose focus a bit.