2015 United States Grand Prix - Austin, October 23 - 25

[Godius]

Does anyone have a link to Sainz's onboard camera footage of the first few laps? He had an amazing start from last to 10th in 1 lap I believe.

[theblackangus]

Ill add my 2 cents.
1. From the top view you can see that no other car took Hamiltons line, or a line any where near that wide from the inside.
2. Hamilton lost time to the cars behind going that wide, it wasn't the fastest line and others didn't have terminal understeer.
3. Rosberg would have gotten cut off by the cars behind had he tried the undercut.
4. As Alonzo said - You must always leave room!

I don't really like seeing racing like that. If you aren't stand up enough to do the right thing and leave room for a competitor on track when they are beside you, then you should be penalized. Didn't like it when Senna did it or when Schumi did it, don't like it now. They were all good enough to win w/o being a poor sportsman in doing so.

[PlatinumZealot]

I agree that´s the best strategy in that situations, but it was a start. For that you must brake a bit earlier than your rival to let him pass so you can take the inner line, but at a start there are too many cars around and braking a bit earlier might mean you loose several positions.

I´m not saying he took best decision, but on a start with your team mate side by side with him in the better side and 18 more cars just behind, any decision will have some flaw

I agree it's riskier at a start, but based on the overhead shots, he had room to pull it off.

Hmm from above it looked less aggressive.
Like Lewis inteneded to only hang Rosberg out to dry. Rosberg senses this and starts turning in early. Look on Rosberg's line. He forces the issue and takes an earlier, tighter line turning into lewis! I can see why Lewis said he did not mean to hit Nico because Nico was "supposed to" brake earlier and cut in on the inside behind Lewis, but he didn't. That was so against normal racing tendencies. Even seeing no way through, he stuck on the outside after he turned in early, hoping to force Hamilton to give him space.

I no longer feel sorry for him now. He made his own bed. I don't why he turned in so early when the other car was there. It was obvious Ham was running wide, but Nico wanted to prove a point.

[MercedesAMGSpy]

Ill add my 2 cents.
1. From the top view you can see that no other car took Hamiltons line, or a line any where near that wide from the inside.
2. Hamilton lost time to the cars behind going that wide, it wasn't the fastest line and others didn't have terminal understeer.
3. Rosberg would have gotten cut off by the cars behind had he tried the undercut.
4. As Alonzo said - You must always leave room!

I don't really like seeing racing like that. If you aren't stand up enough to do the right thing and leave room for a competitor on track when they are beside you, then you should be penalized. Didn't like it when Senna did it or when Schumi did it, don't like it now. They were all good enough to win w/o being a poor sportsman in doing so.

When we are going to penalise these kind of moves, we can stop calling F1 racing. Every person involved in motorsport knows what's going to happen when you are on the outside during such a move. It was entirely predictable, but Rosberg refuses to learn.

[theblackangus]

Ill add my 2 cents.
1. From the top view you can see that no other car took Hamiltons line, or a line any where near that wide from the inside.
2. Hamilton lost time to the cars behind going that wide, it wasn't the fastest line and others didn't have terminal understeer.
3. Rosberg would have gotten cut off by the cars behind had he tried the undercut.
4. As Alonzo said - You must always leave room!

I don't really like seeing racing like that. If you aren't stand up enough to do the right thing and leave room for a competitor on track when they are beside you, then you should be penalized. Didn't like it when Senna did it or when Schumi did it, don't like it now. They were all good enough to win w/o being a poor sportsman in doing so.

When we are going to penalise these kind of moves, we can stop calling F1 racing. Every person involved in motorsport knows what's going to happen when you are on the outside during such a move. It was entirely predictable, but Rosberg refuses to learn.

Some of the best wheel to wheel racing happened because people didn't push other people out. If anything we have lost that in F1. No skill involved in pushing people off the track on an outside maneuver, the skill is racing them wheel to wheel and coming out the victor.

[dans79]

Some of the best wheel to wheel racing happened because people didn't push other people out. If anything we have lost that in F1. No skill involved in pushing people off the track on an outside maneuver, the skill is racing them wheel to wheel and coming out the victor.

What are we taking about here, late 50's early 60's?

[theblackangus]

Some of the best wheel to wheel racing happened because people didn't push other people out. If anything we have lost that in F1. No skill involved in pushing people off the track on an outside maneuver, the skill is racing them wheel to wheel and coming out the victor.

What are we taking about here, late 50's early 60's?

From then to present, there are examples of that all through out the sports history.

[Moose]

Some of the best wheel to wheel racing happened because people didn't push other people out. If anything we have lost that in F1. No skill involved in pushing people off the track on an outside maneuver, the skill is racing them wheel to wheel and coming out the victor.

What are we taking about here, late 50's early 60's?

How about 2010?
https://vimeo.com/18831417

Though actually, this is rather the oposite point being made here.

The racing is so good here because neither driver tried to just hang it out round the outside - they switched back, and tried to make counter attacks rather than just trying to hold on and get pushed off track.

If you want to race, and race well, don't end up forced onto the outside, done.

[Sevach]

It's been long enough, i think this area needs a clear cut clarification.

[theblackangus]

Some of the best wheel to wheel racing happened because people didn't push other people out. If anything we have lost that in F1. No skill involved in pushing people off the track on an outside maneuver, the skill is racing them wheel to wheel and coming out the victor.

What are we taking about here, late 50's early 60's?

How about 2010?
https://vimeo.com/18831417

Though actually, this is rather the oposite point being made here.

The racing is so good here because neither driver tried to just hang it out round the outside - they switched back, and tried to make counter attacks rather than just trying to hold on and get pushed off track.

If you want to race, and race well, don't end up forced onto the outside, done.

Good example, but the 1st corner there is the example of good side by side racing. The trailing car took the outside and the car on the inside didn't just push him off the track, which he could have done.

[mrluke]

You aren't asking for clarification, you are asking for a change to the rules.

Its already quite clear.

[iotar__]

Some of the best wheel to wheel racing happened because people didn't push other people out. If anything we have lost that in F1. No skill involved in pushing people off the track on an outside maneuver, the skill is racing them wheel to wheel and coming out the victor.

What are we taking about here, late 50's early 60's?

From then to present, there are examples of that all through out the sports history.

After one of the dirtiest moves I can remember, Schumacher on Barrichello '10(?), Berger claimed that it was normal and used to happen all the time. My point is: I don't like the distinction between some golden past and flawed present, the problem with good old days is that you can pick and choose whatever suits you: either Berger's driving into walls, gentlemen drivers leaving space, e.i. Villeneuve - Arnoux or any random example showing nothing like videos above.

Speaking of bad driving, how did Massa avoid a penalty for the start collision? Bottas the same, blindly driving into a turning car. Drivers sometimes lose their talents when they don't start from the second row in the second best cars.

Starts are another area after track limits turned into a joke by FIA. They ignored Raikkonen Australia, Ricciardo Austria and Japan, Hulkenberg Russia and now Massa. It could be called a consistency in promoting low driving standards with predictable results (repeats) except for half a dozen of investigations into victims in Austria. Why then and not now?

[dans79]

Good example, but the 1st corner there is the example of good side by side racing. The trailing car took the outside and the car on the inside didn't just push him off the track, which he could have done.

Completely different, track, corner, and racing conditions. In other words, completely different context and that's what matters to the drivers, and more importantly the stewards. We can go on and on about what it correct, what is proper, what is gentlemanly, what is dirty, but it does mater one damn bit. The only thing that matters is what the other drivers and stewards think!

[CriXus]

The problem with Lewis is that he touched Nico, it's probably on the very limit, but that doesn't excuse Nico for his poor wheel to wheel racing. He should have squeezed him before turn one, he needs to be much more brutal in these situations, at the end of the day this is not ballet, you don't need to be gentle. I miss the good old days of Schumacher vs Montoya, Schumacher vs Hakkinen, Senna vs Prost and many more.

[GrizzleBoy]

I agree that´s the best strategy in that situations, but it was a start. For that you must brake a bit earlier than your rival to let him pass so you can take the inner line, but at a start there are too many cars around and braking a bit earlier might mean you loose several positions.

I´m not saying he took best decision, but on a start with your team mate side by side with him in the better side and 18 more cars just behind, any decision will have some flaw

I agree it's riskier at a start, but based on the overhead shots, he had room to pull it off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ECNJESg8M

The second set of shots from in front of the drivers actually shows that he was actually ahead of Nico going into T1 and Nico tried to creep In round the outside.

It actually looks like it's Lewis' corner from that angle.

I fact, if you actually watch both their on boards (easier to see from Lewis') at the end of the video you see that in chronological order :

-Rosberg actually loses the late braking game and Hamilton edges in front

- Nico then let's off the brakes probably realising that Lewis is actually ahead of him going into the turn to try to get further ahead and rolls deep into the corner

- Lewis is already turning in a little and the car responds. (Look at the red billboards to see the rotation of the car).

- Half a second after Lewis puts in more lock, we see Rosberg actually almost running over Lewis' front wing. From his onboard we can use the red billboards to show that at the same amount of steering angle as Lewis, he gets very good rotation. Head back to Lewis' onboard and you'll see with the same almost 90 degrees of lock Nico put in, he isn't actually getting almost any rotation from the car at all. Ironically, if Nico wasn't turning in, Lewis could have used less lock and not understeer for so long.

What this all shows is that Nico braked earlier, coasted forward with the car under control and had much more time to get his turning done. Being on the outside with a wider line also helped.

Conversely, Lewis braked later and was still trailing off his brakes at the time Nico had aLready started coasting evidenced by Nico dropping behind briefly heading into the braking zone, then edging forward through the turn. Also evidenced by the small amount of steering lock Lewis uses into the braking zone followed by the attempted turn in which if you're honest with your own eyes, visibly did nothing to actually turn the car. Classic understeer. With the late braking and tighter inside line, Lewis didn't have the same amount of time to settle the car and with Nico turning in, had to shove in some extra lock to avoid, but it didn't work.

The funny thing then, is that it was actually Nico that caused the contact by attempting to turn into a car he didn't think should have been there. But it was.

Thinking about it some more, when people usually out rake themselves side by side into a corner, the other car will hang back while the out braked car suffers from a poor line ( eg Lewis trajectory heading off track), understeer (visible in Lewis' onboard), poor traction etc and follow the better line through the corner, Rosberg actually made the decision to try and follow Lewis round the corner by allowing his car to coast instead of continuing to brake. Probably flustered by the fact that Lewis got alongside and actually braked in front of him going into T1.

It's too late....