2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Edax wrote: About periphal vision. Have you ever driven a car? Prettyimpossible to see things which are aproaching from that angle. And that is even without having a helmet on.

There is a reason they invented these things.

http://i2.wp.com/drivingdc.com/blog/wp- ... 1200%2C628
Yes, the reason is people don´t know how to adjust their mirrors :wink:

People want to see behind them from the external mirrors, and that´s a mistake. Those mirrors are there to see at your sides, not behind. To look beghind you there is another mirror inside the car. F1 drivers don´t have this mirror tough, so yes, they have a dead angle, but we haven´t if you know how to adjust your mirrors (to not see on external mirrors what you already see in the inside one, i.e. moving them out)

henra
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Edax wrote:
A-Bap wrote: To me it seems like a racing accident and I'm not sure it should have been penalized. Maybe Bottas was a bit overenthousiastic, but it is not like he dive bombed Hamilton.
Yup. Classic racing incident. Not the brightest move of Bottas, yet no classic 'dive bomb'. He simply tried to slowly squeeze himself besides Lewis, hoping that the latter would avoid a collision. Might have worked if he hadn't been in Lewis' blind spot.
Clumsy and a bit stupid move but no real crime. Penalty is really borderline. Similar incidents haven't been penalized in many, many cases before.

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Vasconia
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Andres125sx wrote:
Edax wrote: About periphal vision. Have you ever driven a car? Prettyimpossible to see things which are aproaching from that angle. And that is even without having a helmet on.

There is a reason they invented these things.

http://i2.wp.com/drivingdc.com/blog/wp- ... 1200%2C628
Yes, the reason is people don´t know how to adjust their mirrors :wink:

People want to see behind them from the external mirrors, and that´s a mistake. Those mirrors are there to see at your sides, not behind. To look beghind you there is another mirror inside the car. F1 drivers don´t have this mirror tough, so yes, they have a dead angle, but we haven´t if you know how to adjust your mirrors (to not see on external mirrors what you already see in the inside one, i.e. moving them out)
But there is still a dead angle even if you adjust it, or perhaps I am still adjusting badly my mirrors...

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Andres125sx wrote:People want to see behind them from the external mirrors, and that´s a mistake. Those mirrors are there to see at your sides, not behind. To look beghind you there is another mirror inside the car. F1 drivers don´t have this mirror tough, so yes, they have a dead angle, but we haven´t if you know how to adjust your mirrors (to not see on external mirrors what you already see in the inside one, i.e. moving them out)
Seriously? :wtf:

The side mirrors are to look behind, essentially to see the edge of your car to what ever the angle allows. The edge of the car is important, i.e. when backing into parking spaces in reverse because it essentially lets you see the boundary of your car. With all 3 mirrors (both side mirrors and the center mirror) you have a complete view of what happens behind your car (center mirror) and close approximation of behind to side (both side mirrors) - the view that is important to when you are changing lanes, i.e. on the highway where you have multiple lanes and you might want to see a car driving on the lane next to you but a car length behind. This car will be visible clearly in your side mirrors.

The created "blind spot" is the car that is essentially next to yours, hence why driving schools around the world teach you 3 important steps when about to pull off a maneuver where you change lanes:

1.) Check your center mirror
2.) Check your side mirror (on the side you are about to change lane into)
3.) Turn your head to check your blind spot.

If you do these 3 steps, you have a fairly good idea what is happening around your car and can foresee pretty much most dangers that you might be confronted with. You will also note that these 3 steps can be done in one fluid motion, moving your head from the center to the side and ending it by turning your head to check your blind spot.

Illustration (not perfect one, the cones are be a bit more shallow in reality), but how the mirrors should be aligned:

Image

I sincerely hope you are not using your side mirrors any way else, or else I'd deem you a severe risk on the road to yourself and others. If you change them to be facing your "blind spot", then you have just created another one (i.e. the car that is approaching on a lane next to yours but still one or two car length behind yours). And on any motorway, this is dangerous - cars approaching with high speed on example the fast lane next to yours. Case in point; the german motorways. You do not want to overlook cars that are approaching parallel to yours when about to conduct an overtaking maneuver. And btw; no, your view from the center mirrors is in no way satisfactory, much less when you have 3 passangers (2 person behind, their head blocking your view and creating an even shallower line of sight angle). Also, if you have a car behind you, the view from the side mirrors will become essential. If those are not facing where they should, you will be blind as a bat, not able to see crucially what is happening behind you unless turning your head and taking your view away from the front.

Any person, blog or others who tell you to do otherwise are just doing it because people are too stupid (them included) to move their heads while driving or forget too, hence why many accidents on the road happen: They change lanes without looking. There's a reason why the 3 above steps are taught in every single competent driving school.
Last edited by Phil on 05 Apr 2016, 17:31, edited 2 times in total.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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BanMeToo
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Phil you are utterly wrong here. The side mirrors should reduce your 3/4 blind spot as much as possible, shown on the right.


Image

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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There's a difference in what Andres is saying and what you are saying. I'm all for reducing your "blind spot" as much as possible, but setting them to be facing outwards because you deem your center mirror adequate is a far way off. Your left illustration is far too extreme, as from that view, you will be seeing your car far too much. My post and description is far closer to your right illustration (hence, we're closer to agreeing than disagreeing) than what Andres is proposing.

Also note not every car has a center-mirror, either because the view is blocked (like in my car by an engine that is there) or other vans and other types of vehicles. For the best part, you can ignore the center mirror, as traveling with by-passengers will limit that view to close to useless. Also, a car driving right behind you will also block that view, hence why a correct use of the side mirrors are essential.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

BanMeToo
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Fair, then. Lots of people are uncomfortable without constantly seeing the edge of their car in each side mirror. So they set them incorrectly like the left image.

giantfan10
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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BanMeToo wrote:Fair, then. Lots of people are uncomfortable without constantly seeing the edge of their car in each side mirror. So they set them incorrectly like the left image.
count me as one of them , I'm also quite comfortable turning my head to look to either side of my vehicle.

hemichromis
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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BanMeToo wrote:Fair, then. Lots of people are uncomfortable without constantly seeing the edge of their car in each side mirror. So they set them incorrectly like the left image.
If you can't see the dge of the car it makes it all to easy for you NOT to notice if the mirror has been knocked and is pointing in the wrong direction. The edge of the car gives a reference point.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Very long reply, but I think this is VERY important for people safety, so I´ll try to explain the best I can with my poor english. Moderators, if you can move this discussion to its own thread that will be great.
Phil wrote:The side mirrors are to look behind
No they are not. This is a classic mistake.
Phil wrote:The created "blind spot" is the car that is essentially next to yours, hence why driving schools around the world teach you 3 important steps when about to pull off a maneuver where you change lanes:

1.) Check your center mirror
2.) Check your side mirror (on the side you are about to change lane into)
3.) Turn your head to check your blind spot.

If you do these 3 steps, you have a fairly good idea what is happening around your car and can foresee pretty much most dangers that you might be confronted with. You will also note that these 3 steps can be done in one fluid motion, moving your head from the center to the side and ending it by turning your head to check your blind spot.
And you´re moving your eyes away from the road, wich is far from optimal

I only do that when riding my bike, as it does not have center mirror so the side mirrors must point closer to the center line of my bike, missing some angle at the sides (dead point). In that case yes, it´s needed to move your head to look at your sides, but if you have a center mirror, you can adjust them further to the sides, reducing the dead angle to an almost irrelevant point, and avoid moving your head.
Phil wrote:Illustration (not perfect one, the cones are be a bit more shallow in reality), but how the mirrors should be aligned:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... us.svg.png
Perfect explanation of how absurd is adjusting your mirrors that way. You see same thing twice (center and side mirror, the dark yellow zones) and miss anything at your sides. That illustration is very optimistic about the field of view side mirrors provide tough, it really is narrower so the dead angle at your sides is bigger

Imagine in that ilustration if you move the side mirrors furhter to the sides, so the dark yellow zones are reduced and the field of view is increased to the sides. You loose nothing as the dark yellow zone wich is not dark anymore is still inside your center mirror field of view (FOV), but you increase your FOV at your sides. No cons, big pro.
Phil wrote:I sincerely hope you are not using your side mirrors any way else, or else I'd deem you a severe risk on the road to yourself and others.
It´s actually the other way around, I´m tired of watching people getting scared or crashing after some vehicle was out of their fov when trying to switch lanes because their mirrors are poorly adjusted. In 20 years driving I´ve never been scared because of this, and never moved my head to any side, because my mirrors are perfectly adjusted and I have no dead points.

Well actually there´s a small dead point, but smaller than a car or even a bike, so when the vehicle goes out the center mirror FOV, it´s already visible in my side mirror. Same after that, when it goes out the side mirror FOV, it´s already visible on direct view without moving my head to the side further.

BTW, today with mirrors with convex edges this is even easier to achieve, and the small and irrelevant dead angle I was talking about can dissapear completely
Phil wrote:And on any motorway, this is dangerous - cars approaching with high speed on example the fast lane next to yours.
Yes, for this reason you must get used to looking at your center mirror first, even if you just want to switch lane. Center mirrors also allow you to look at the lanes at your sides, from some meters back. You then check none is approaching fast, then you look at your side mirror and check if there´s someone at your side. If not, you then can move to your side lane without moving your head, because both mirrors did provide you an excelent picture of what´s going on around you. No need to look at your sides directly, and no dead points.

There´s only small dead point as I explained earlier, wich does not fit a car so it´s irrelevant.... for the lanes next to you. Two lanes away the dead point is big enough to fit a car, but if you´re not a stupid driver switching two lanes in a row and check your mirrors before each lane change, then there´s no problem at all, no dead angles
Phil wrote:Any person, blog or others who tell you to do otherwise are just doing it because people are too stupid (them included) to move their heads while driving or forget too
Or because they realiced it´s utterly stupid using two mirrors to see same thing (dark yellow zones), and moved their side mirrors further to the sides to increase the field of view without missing or loosing anything

Phil wrote:The edge of the car is important, i.e. when backing into parking spaces in reverse because it essentially lets you see the boundary of your car.
In that situation it´s very easy to move your head a bit to the sides to see directly behind, using the boundary of the car as a reference as you said. That´s easy to do when moving back slowly, much easier than moving your head back to look at your sides when travelling on a road or highway as you (and everyone) usually advise :wink: If I have an accidente because of moving my head, I prefer if it is on a parking moving at 5kmh backwards, rather than on a highway at 120kmh because exactly when I moved my head to my side, the car in front applied brakes and I didn´t see it because I was looking at my side, and crash with him.

Jef Patat
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Oh boy, why am I even posting this. Side mirrors should not show the side of your car. What would be the purpose? To check if the car is still there?

To add to andres: an image is worth a thousand words:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~gdguo/driving/BlindSpot.htm

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Jef Patat wrote:Oh boy, why am I even posting this. Side mirrors should not show the side of your car. What would be the purpose? To check if the car is still there?

To add to andres: an image is worth a thousand words:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~gdguo/driving/BlindSpot.htm
Not trying to argue one way or the other because I believe it's a question of the car, its mirrors and your personal preference but...

If you take your image example and look at the second image you can see that if the blue car was already in the left lane and a few meters behind it would be in a blind spot between the rear mirror and the left one. That is the only really dangerous situation because generally those are cars moving faster than you and also you can't see them on your window since they are far behind. In fact that is the main place your side mirror needs to give you vision.

BanMeToo
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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No man, look at the top cutaway of the second image. You can see the entire car!!! That is closer to reality than the red triangles they drew on the top-down image. If it's further away you can see it in your rear-view mirror.


and QFT
Jef Patat wrote:Oh boy, why am I even posting this. Side mirrors should not show the side of your car. What would be the purpose? To check if the car is still there?

CBeck113
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Seeing the edge of your own car gives you a reference point as to the location of the other car to yours, which can be comforting, especially in faster congested traffic like on the Autobahn. I've tried the other method, but don't trust my feeling in flowing traffic to tell if I have enough room to pull out or is the car too close, but I want to know for sure. For the record, I've tried a car with blind spot protection, and it worked quite well - but I'm not so sure F1 needs it.
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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CBeck113 wrote:Seeing the edge of your own car gives you a reference point as to the location of the other car to yours, which can be comforting, especially in faster congested traffic like on the Autobahn. I've tried the other method, but don't trust my feeling in flowing traffic to tell if I have enough room to pull out or is the car too close
With the mirrors correctly positioned, if you see a car (or whatever) on your side mirror, you cannot move to that lane. No need to calculate anything. It works similar to the blind spot warnings, if there´s anything in the mirror, wait, you cannot move, it doesn´t matter if it´s in the left or right side of the mirror, he´s next to you anycase

I perfectly understand that´s a problem for someone who is used to use side mirrors to look back, but once you get used to only use center mirror for that, the problem goes away


I know because I went down that road myself some time ago, it does need some time to get used, but once you get the habit there´re no blind spots anymore and you can drive much safer.