2016 Grand Prix of Abu Dhabi - Yas Marina, 25-27 November

[Edax]

So they didn´t use a PU before Spain?

First upgrade, wich was the most important, was in winter

Take a look at Ricciardo results (to keep driver as a constant). Last 6 races of 2015:
15th-15th-10th-5th-11th-6th

And first 6 races of 2016, 6th race was Verstappen debut with victory:
4th-4th-4th-11th-4th-2nd

The improvement is obvious from first race of 2016 season, much before Verstappen debut, so sorry but your favourite driver surely is a great driver, but he can´t do magic and he´s far from the responsible of RBR improvement. RBR turnaround was not Verstappen, it was Renault-TagHeuer

At the beginning of the season the car couldn't touch ferrari and that is now reversed. But I see I touched a nerve here. Let me put it in hopefully less offensive examples as I am not interested in a pissing match on Ves.

Hamilton wants a car to rotate around the front so he can slide the back around. Schumacher wants a supercritical and agile front end under direction changes. Raikonen wants crisps steering when turning in., so much that he asked for the whole steering rack to be replaced one hour or so from the start of the MON qualifying.

Great drivers know exactly what they want from a car and are able to work out with the engineers how to get it. They discuss with the engineers over a mm of wheelbase change. There are numerous of examples of drivers thinking to get a drive in a championship winning car only to find out that the champion had personalized the car so much that it was unworkable for someone with a different driving style.

I think the synergy between a driver and its engineers is worth at least a second a lap and likely more.

[Andres125sx]

Please keep personal spats off the thread. This thread is about matters pertaining to the Abu Dhabi GP.

[Andres125sx]

So they didn´t use a PU before Spain?

First upgrade, wich was the most important, was in winter

Take a look at Ricciardo results (to keep driver as a constant). Last 6 races of 2015:
15th-15th-10th-5th-11th-6th

And first 6 races of 2016, 6th race was Verstappen debut with victory:
4th-4th-4th-11th-4th-2nd

The improvement is obvious from first race of 2016 season, much before Verstappen debut, so sorry but your favourite driver surely is a great driver, but he can´t do magic and he´s far from the responsible of RBR improvement. RBR turnaround was not Verstappen, it was Renault-TagHeuer

At the beginning of the season the car couldn't touch ferrari and that is now reversed. But I see I touched a nerve here.

If you want to analyse this seriously, I´m open to discussion, but you´ll need some more evidence/reasoing than "RBR improved along the season", because RBR usually improve along the season, every season

[Manoah2u]

Please keep personal spats off the thread. This thread is about matters pertaining to the Abu Dhabi GP.

yes mod. [a bit hypocritical, don't you think?]

[Manoah2u]

So they didn´t use a PU before Spain?

First upgrade, wich was the most important, was in winter

Take a look at Ricciardo results (to keep driver as a constant). Last 6 races of 2015:
15th-15th-10th-5th-11th-6th

And first 6 races of 2016, 6th race was Verstappen debut with victory:
4th-4th-4th-11th-4th-2nd

The improvement is obvious from first race of 2016 season, much before Verstappen debut, so sorry but your favourite driver surely is a great driver, but he can´t do magic and he´s far from the responsible of RBR improvement. RBR turnaround was not Verstappen, it was Renault-TagHeuer

At the beginning of the season the car couldn't touch ferrari and that is now reversed. But I see I touched a nerve here. Let me put it in hopefully less offensive examples as I am not interested in a pissing match on Ves.

Hamilton wants a car to rotate around the front so he can slide the back around. Schumacher wants a supercritical and agile front end under direction changes. Raikonen wants crisps steering when turning in., so much that he asked for the whole steering rack to be replaced one hour or so from the start of the MON qualifying.

Great drivers know exactly what they want from a car and are able to work out with the engineers how to get it. They discuss with the engineers over a mm of wheelbase change. There are numerous of examples of drivers thinking to get a drive in a championship winning car only to find out that the champion had personalized the car so much that it was unworkable for someone with a different driving style.

I think the synergy between a driver and its engineers is worth at least a second a lap and likely more.

It did work in RedBull's favour though that Ferrari made such a giant mess of their tactics. The only moment we finally saw some good work was ironically in the last race, and oddly enough, Vettel was suddenly back in form and showed his 'classic' potential.

Still remains to be seen what next year brings. Interestingly, the rule revision will favor both RedBull, aswell as Vettel's driving style.

[PlatinumZealot]

Those blown diffuser cars were stable in a counter intuitive way with more throttle input u have more grip on exit.... It is not a matter of vettels driving style but rather vettel figuring out how to drive those cars on the limit. The 2017 will more or less have the same mechanical and aero balance as 2016 cars judging by the tyre sizes which are just scaled up from the current ones. Cars will have very intuitive balance next year too. I see no advantage for Vettel.

[Manoah2u]

Yes, but you're forgetting the huge diffuser

[strad]

because then you can be sure he´s a great driver instead of a lucky driver who drove best car

While that is true to some extent you have to be aware that one of Fangio's greatest talents was his knack for jumping to that next top team. He had a real knack for seeming to know which team was going to be successful.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

So, all that smoke that came out of the weed in Abu Dhabi is settled and wisdom has prevailed.

No more nonsense of disciplinary action and all that type.

Wolff: Mercedes made wrong call with Abu Dhabi GP team orders

Isn't Lewis just an employee who should have done whatever was told? It seems not and the Manager feels he himself was wrong.

[turbof1]

So, all that smoke that came out of the weed in Abu Dhabi is settled and wisdom has prevailed.

No more nonsense of disciplinary action and all that type.

Wolff: Mercedes made wrong call with Abu Dhabi GP team orders

Isn't Lewis just an employee who should have done whatever was told? It seems not and the Manager feels he himself was wrong.

In all honesty, and regardless if it is the right or wrong call, the management has lost every and all authority it had over Hamilton. How will they be able now to get him to listen in the future, in any situation that requires him to follow orders? Wolff and Lauda placed Hamilton above themselves in hierarchy.

Paddy Lowe atleast understood quickly what this was leading to and quite correctly refused to send a second message, keeping some credibility for himself. But Wolff and Lauda had to explode this into the media, with now having to publicly coming back on that.

They better put Wehrlein in the car and keep him away from Hamilton, else I foresee events where Hamilton receives instructions and ignores them.

Note this is not criticism towards Hamilton by any means, but to the management team. The team's vision was to prioritize the team and the drivers only get second attention. Great, but by first condemning Hamilton for ignoring instructions and than saying "we were wrong" they oficially defeated their own visions.

Let's just hope for Toto Wolff he stands at the correct position during the pitstops in Australia. Hamilton will need a punching bag, just because.

[Manoah2u]

As said before, Mercedes' way of possibly even trying to get rid of Lewis, has come back to bite them in their *ss. Karma is a b*sh,
and all thanks for puking out Lewis and his efforts in favor of handing a WDC to Blue-eyed German Rosberg and walking over Lew
all the way and as a thanks the German says "sc*ew your guys, i'm going home" and leaves them in a total mess.

I have zero sympathy left for Mercedes after AbuDhabi and less with this nonsense.
Yeah, they are rendered powerless towards Lewis now, as he's the only one left to give them any worthwile result, and any teammate
left to choose from is simply 'not good enough'. Imagine if Lewis would be out, too. It could send them to the midfield in a single blow.

I was quite frankly surprised to see such vocal expressions about the issue, which to me hinted it was an opportunity they were grabbing
to ditch Hamilton. It's going to be an interesting 2017!

[PlatinumZealot]

So, all that smoke that came out of the weed in Abu Dhabi is settled and wisdom has prevailed.

No more nonsense of disciplinary action and all that type.

Wolff: Mercedes made wrong call with Abu Dhabi GP team orders

Isn't Lewis just an employee who should have done whatever was told? It seems not and the Manager feels he himself was wrong.

In all honesty, and regardless if it is the right or wrong call, the management has lost every and all authority it had over Hamilton. How will they be able now to get him to listen in the future, in any situation that requires him to follow orders? Wolff and Lauda placed Hamilton above themselves in hierarchy.

Paddy Lowe atleast understood quickly what this was leading to and quite correctly refused to send a second message, keeping some credibility for himself. But Wolff and Lauda had to explode this into the media, with now having to publicly coming back on that.

They better put Wehrlein in the car and keep him away from Hamilton, else I foresee events where Hamilton receives instructions and ignores them.

Note this is not criticism towards Hamilton by any means, but to the management team. The team's vision was to prioritize the team and the drivers only get second attention. Great, but by first condemning Hamilton for ignoring instructions and than saying "we were wrong" they oficially defeated their own visions.

Let's just hope for Toto Wolff he stands at the correct position during the pitstops in Australia. Hamilton will need a punching bag, just because.

Incomplete logic there.
There are perfectly legitimate reasons why Hamilton had disobeyed team orders and even times where he had obeyed them to his own undoing.

In the case in abudhabi, Hamilton was the driver in the car, and as paddy said, ham knew the real pace of the car at any given time. When the engineer was asking for 1:41 ham know thet Vettel was no match even if he were to pass rosberg. Just like wolf said the order ended up being the wrong one and so was it in Hungary.

[PlatinumZealot]

As said before, Mercedes' way of possibly even trying to get rid of Lewis, has come back to bite them in their *ss. Karma is a b*sh,
and all thanks for puking out Lewis and his efforts in favor of handing a WDC to Blue-eyed German Rosberg and walking over Lew
all the way and as a thanks the German says "sc*ew your guys, i'm going home" and leaves them in a total mess.

I have zero sympathy left for Mercedes after AbuDhabi and less with this nonsense.
Yeah, they are rendered powerless towards Lewis now, as he's the only one left to give them any worthwile result, and any teammate
left to choose from is simply 'not good enough'. Imagine if Lewis would be out, too. It could send them to the midfield in a single blow.

I was quite frankly surprised to see such vocal expressions about the issue, which to me hinted it was an opportunity they were grabbing
to ditch Hamilton. It's going to be an interesting 2017!

It is a double edged sword...
Get a crappy team mate pay him a china man's salary and watch lewis grow into an influential juggernaut like michael.

Pay out the wazoo to extricate anyone even remotely good as lewis. (vet, lonzo, max, rick) and take on the stress of that diva fever in a sprite bottle.

Or fire lewis and be left with two journeymen and lose the crown.

Any choice and the a mercedes big wig will lose in some shape or form.

[turbof1]

So, all that smoke that came out of the weed in Abu Dhabi is settled and wisdom has prevailed.

No more nonsense of disciplinary action and all that type.

Wolff: Mercedes made wrong call with Abu Dhabi GP team orders

Isn't Lewis just an employee who should have done whatever was told? It seems not and the Manager feels he himself was wrong.

In all honesty, and regardless if it is the right or wrong call, the management has lost every and all authority it had over Hamilton. How will they be able now to get him to listen in the future, in any situation that requires him to follow orders? Wolff and Lauda placed Hamilton above themselves in hierarchy.

Paddy Lowe atleast understood quickly what this was leading to and quite correctly refused to send a second message, keeping some credibility for himself. But Wolff and Lauda had to explode this into the media, with now having to publicly coming back on that.

They better put Wehrlein in the car and keep him away from Hamilton, else I foresee events where Hamilton receives instructions and ignores them.

Note this is not criticism towards Hamilton by any means, but to the management team. The team's vision was to prioritize the team and the drivers only get second attention. Great, but by first condemning Hamilton for ignoring instructions and than saying "we were wrong" they oficially defeated their own visions.

Let's just hope for Toto Wolff he stands at the correct position during the pitstops in Australia. Hamilton will need a punching bag, just because.

Incomplete logic there.
There are perfectly legitimate reasons why Hamilton had disobeyed team orders and even times where he had obeyed them to his own undoing.

And this is why my logic is solid and yours is based on things not being said at all: I have not made any standpoint in my post about whether Hamilton was right or wrong. My post was completely devoted to explaining how the team reacted completely wrong, even from their point lf view.

[dans79]

I think the real issue, is that senior Merc management predominantly Wolff has a tendency to micro manage every little detail. That management style doesn't work with employees who have dominant personality types (race drivers for sure). You either need to accept them for who they are, or you need to replace them early on. If you try to pressure them into capitulating, that only makes them dig in, and the problem worse.

I think what we are seeing here are the initial cracks caused by overbearing management staff.