2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

[Noetiepoerker26]

Weren't these rule changes meant to be Red Bulls golden opportunity to close the gap to Mercedes ? Can the phrase / myth "the genius Adrian Newey" now be put to rest

It was blown up enourmously by the media (in the Netherlands as well,for obvious reasons ), if you ask me. Of course Red Bull did not deny that there would be chances to close the gap to Mercedes with the new regulations, in comparison to the media who acted as if Red Bull was already the top contender before the season even started.

[Sonador]

Marko hinted at a new car in time for Spain in an article recently, but what he exactly means by saying that, who knows.
But usually Marko tells it the way it is, like him or not ...

[djos]

I'm guessing it's not a new car but heavily revised aero.

[Sonador]

I'm guessing it's not a new car but heavily revised aero.

I hope and think so, i am trying to find the article where he said it.

[Pierce89]

You missed out "mends budgies broken wings"

Seriously SR71 the benchmark for the last 3 years has been Mercedes managing the complexities of aero, chassis and powertrain to achieve complete dominance. Right now Red Bull are behind in the two areas over which they have total control. We will see if they can retrieve the situation.

Of course you can look at the low hanging fruit and say Merc are the benchmark. In performance yes. Are they the Benchmark team?

Well, some will say yes. I say no. That's RB. Holistically RB represent F1 more than Merc does - they bring more to the sport in promotion, doing events on mountians and beaches and everwhere in between. Vettel/Ricciardo/Max/Sainz? Any team can purchase a top driver or provide basic support like merc or ferrari does, but still not on RB's level.

The fact they are throwing money at a B-Spec/New car this soon after winter testing is amazing. The enormous costs and human resource challenge, that's what F1 is about. Trying your absolute hardest and blowing a fortune in doing so. When was the last time we saw this happen? Newey was involved on that one too? That guy's committed.

Let's see how Merc handles the few years after their dominance ends... My money is they throw their toys a lot farther than RB did.

And I didnt mean to start a this team - that team debate.

I only meant to appreciate the shear enormity of a team developing a 2nd car in a single season.

The eating of balaclavas used to be this forums choice for admitting when one was wrong. So.... in that spirit, if RBR bring a legitimate "b spec" car, I'll straight chow down on my balaclava.

[SR71]

You missed out "mends budgies broken wings"

Seriously SR71 the benchmark for the last 3 years has been Mercedes managing the complexities of aero, chassis and powertrain to achieve complete dominance. Right now Red Bull are behind in the two areas over which they have total control. We will see if they can retrieve the situation.

Of course you can look at the low hanging fruit and say Merc are the benchmark. In performance yes. Are they the Benchmark team?

Well, some will say yes. I say no. That's RB. Holistically RB represent F1 more than Merc does - they bring more to the sport in promotion, doing events on mountians and beaches and everwhere in between. Vettel/Ricciardo/Max/Sainz? Any team can purchase a top driver or provide basic support like merc or ferrari does, but still not on RB's level.

The fact they are throwing money at a B-Spec/New car this soon after winter testing is amazing. The enormous costs and human resource challenge, that's what F1 is about. Trying your absolute hardest and blowing a fortune in doing so. When was the last time we saw this happen? Newey was involved on that one too? That guy's committed.

Let's see how Merc handles the few years after their dominance ends... My money is they throw their toys a lot farther than RB did.

And I didnt mean to start a this team - that team debate.

I only meant to appreciate the shear enormity of a team developing a 2nd car in a single season.

if you think RB is able to pop up a totally new car after the spain tests in just 2 months time, you have no idea how F1 works.

RB has had this car in the pipeline since last year, as a B-option (not b-spec) IF they can't run the idea they had for this car; that is, based upon a suspension philosophy. The suspension (fric-like) has been banned, and it affects them (and arguably mercedes too, as their lead on the competition has almost disappeared) just as well.
This car is probably a compromise, and they use data from this car to put into the 'other spec'. which was possibly put on a sideline until spain/australia.

They have made calculations and did the math that persueing this car's development is a no-go, so they'll go to the other car instead, offcourse that car has been in development before, and if it's ever really put on hold, continued on since spain testing. They already have a competitor that is able to run rather at the top 6 so they can continue development on the RB13 version 2 (not b-spec), perhaps even the RB14, untill they are guaranteed it's good enough to immediately put it in a winning position.

For example, if it's at a level right now where it will be able to battle for p3 and p4, but not on p1 or p2 on it's own, then why do all the hassle when your current RB13 is able to go for P3 and P4 with a little tactical work and some luck? Knowing that all your recourses will make it possible to jump from p5 and p6 to p1 and p2 by just extending the development just a tiny bit more.

I have no clue whether RB's talks are real, but if we look at how close Ferrari has got to Mercedes, and how 'backwards' Mercedes has gotten due to the suspension alone, and RB is still rather close to them - after all just look at their results last 2 races, then i think it's definately possible RB is able to jump Ferrari and battle Mercedes on 'the car alone' - which means, they aren't depending on tactics, changing weather conditions, and bad luck from Mercedes and Ferrari (tactical errors, tire wear, technical issues, driver error) to get atleast on the podium or possibly a P1 finish.

In other words, RB are confident they'll manage to do P1 in Qually and P1 in race when they replace the RB13 for the RB13.2 or RB14.

that's how i read it.
whether that's actually going to happen, is another story since we don't know what Mercedes is cooking up (Nor Ferrari for that matter).

I'm more than aware of the 3-design-team system the top teams employ to develop cars. The RB13.B or RB14 started life the better part of 2 years ago.

I also agree that pulling the trigger for production was done in confidence of P1 - they wouldn't replace what they have for P3. Obviously P1 goals of the RB13.B/14 will be aligned with a Renault upgrade.

This is full commitment.

[Manoah2u]

OK, i misunderstood your post then, thanks for the reaction (y)

And agreed, a Renault PU upgrade will be neccesary. Renault can't let their customer hang out in the dry whilst they're in the back anyway. It's in their own benefit to have RB winning,
even if it's TAG labeled, when they win a couple of races, Renault will take and get the kudos for having a performing engine.

[Quantum]

OK, i misunderstood your post then, thanks for the reaction (y)

And agreed, a Renault PU upgrade will be neccesary. Renault can't let their customer hang out in the dry whilst they're in the back anyway. It's in their own benefit to have RB winning,
even if it's TAG labeled, when they win a couple of races, Renault will take and get the kudos for having a performing engine.

Problem with the whole engine argument is the Renault team with a fairly unspectacular car, managed to be around 0.5 seconds off Red Bull in qualifying at China.
If we compare that to 2016, the gap was 3 seconds.

Either Renault have found 2.5 seconds on Red Bull, law of diminished returns an order of magnitude higher than F1 is accustomed, or Red Bull are being hurt by the suspension being outlawed and their aero is not working accordingly.

[Paul]

But that Renault car was more or less a forlorn b-spec of their 2015 car. They already were focused on this season.

[ME4ME]

I'm more than aware of the 3-design-team system the top teams employ to develop cars. The RB13.B or RB14 started life the better part of 2 years ago.

I think that's way off. Same for Monoahs wild speculation.
It makes no sense to have two or more design teams to individually spend two years on two car concepts for the same set of regulations to see which one is best. No team, not even the big spenders are that ineffective.

Most likely any Barcelona change to the car will be a upgrade package based on the findings from pre-season testing. For obvious reasons, the upgrades will be limited to the development time plus lead time of the items since idea conception.

This is how F1 teams work, they learn and develop at the same time. A lesson learned will result in development items being put on the car a month or two later. That's what so impressive about F1 teams, their agility and responsiveness.

[Quantum]

But that Renault car was more or less a forlorn b-spec of their 2015 car. They already were focused on this season.

Absolutely true, to give the complete perspective.

But many people were pointing to the difference of Renault and Red Bull in 2016 as chassis and aero prowess.
I think we have to credit the Renault guys for closing a 3 second gap to 0.5.

I still have an overriding impression that Red Bull are hurting real bad over the suspension ban.

[SR71]

I'm more than aware of the 3-design-team system the top teams employ to develop cars. The RB13.B or RB14 started life the better part of 2 years ago.

I think that's way off. Same for Monoahs wild speculation.
It makes no sense to have two or more design teams to individually spend two years on two car concepts for the same set of regulations to see which one is best. No team, not even the big spenders are that ineffective.

Most likely any Barcelona change to the car will be a upgrade package based on the findings from pre-season testing. For obvious reasons, the upgrades will be limited to the development time plus lead time of the items since idea conception.

This is how F1 teams work, they learn and develop at the same time. A lesson learned will result in development items being put on the car a month or two later. That's what so impressive about F1 teams, their agility and responsiveness.

Yeah, maybe in spain they show up with a heavily revised RB13, maybe its a proper RB13.b, or maybe it's an all new RB14. We won't know until we know.

But one thing's for sure, top teams have multiple design teams working on cars. You assumed I meant 3 teams working on the same car at the same time, wrong assumption.

Usually, the first team looks at cars 3 years out and looks at the high level concepts, team 2 takes their findings and refines them into a launch spec of sorts, team 3 takes over once launch spec is defined (defined meaning signed off on, not a rolling chassis). Team 3 will be the team who develop the car for winter testing and during the season.

Now I can't say for certain all teams use this same system, but some structural derivative will be in place at Merc/RB/Fer..

IF RB show up with a new RB14 this year, that car will have surely had multiple design teams hands on it and be around 2 years in process.

What you describe in "how F1 teams work" is simply the proper development process of a car a team is committed to and only refers to a single unit who work on the car, not the entire development team who is responsible for bringing a car from paper to track. That's what's so impressive about F1, the depth of process that goes into creating these prototypes. In season development is only one small aspect.

You think the guys/gals who set the original concept in motion are the same ones working on updates for Spa???

We're talking about completely different processes.

[ME4ME]

Yeah, maybe in spain they show up with a heavily revised RB13, maybe its a proper RB13.b, or maybe it's an all new RB14. We won't know until we know.

Within a set of regulation, a car is only going to change so much. Even between teams there are strong simalarities, so unless you more closely define for example what a RB13.B is and isn't, those are entirely arbitrary definitions.

But one thing's for sure, top teams have multiple design teams working on cars. You assumed I meant 3 teams working on the same car at the same time, wrong assumption.

Usually, the first team looks at cars 3 years out and looks at the high level concepts, team 2 takes their findings and refines them into a launch spec of sorts, team 3 takes over once launch spec is defined (defined meaning signed off on, not a rolling chassis). Team 3 will be the team who develop the car for winter testing and during the season.

Now I can't say for certain all teams use this same system, but some structural derivative will be in place at Merc/RB/Fer..

IF RB show up with a new RB14 this year, that car will have surely had multiple design teams hands on it and be around 2 years in process.

What you describe in "how F1 teams work" is simply the proper development process of a car a team is committed to and only refers to a single unit who work on the car, not the entire development team who is responsible for bringing a car from paper to track. That's what's so impressive about F1, the depth of process that goes into creating these prototypes. In season development is only one small aspect.

You think the guys/gals who set the original concept in motion are the same ones working on updates for Spa???

We're talking about completely different processes.

I'm intrigued about where you got this idea of approach from. Without definitvly saying I'm right, I can pretty much assure you you're wrong.

In interviews with both Adrain Newey and Pat Symonds they stated the following approach:
- Mid 2015, the very same senior members from each team who defined the regulations stared working on their car concept.
- Late 2015 more senior members joined in the decision making progress to define the baseline of the car.
- Early 2016: Development resources slip between 2016/2017 cars.
- By April/May most teams fully allocated all resources to the 2017 project
- Late 2016: production of long lead-time parts.

I believe there are no 2nd or 3rd teams. Instead there are senior members who look ahead, while the "bulk" works on development and is assigned workload or projects as is seen fit.

The concept of a new car cannot initially be worked on be an entire team. Most of the concept definition phase is about decision making, which the most senior staff do on their own. Than successivly more personell is added to the project.

So now we are in stable regulations. By May/June 2017 senior members will have started working on the 2018 cars and defining the concept. Then workforce will be allocated step by step.

There is obviously a period between car launch and start of concept definition of the next car where senior members can put their attention towards the current car. I believe this is what's happening at Red Bull and that they discovered some flaws in pre-season testing which are to be fixed in Barcelona. No entirely new car or "RB14", just some fixes accourding to what the lead time allows them to introduce.

There are multiple interviews with the mentioned members, as well as Allison and Green who lay out the process as discribed.

Edit: Just got the book Total Competition delivered today, will see if there's anything of interest to this particular matter in there

[SR71]

Yeah, maybe in spain they show up with a heavily revised RB13, maybe its a proper RB13.b, or maybe it's an all new RB14. We won't know until we know.

Within a set of regulation, a car is only going to change so much. Even between teams there are strong simalarities, so unless you more closely define for example what a RB13.B is and isn't, those are entirely arbitrary definitions.

But one thing's for sure, top teams have multiple design teams working on cars. You assumed I meant 3 teams working on the same car at the same time, wrong assumption.

Usually, the first team looks at cars 3 years out and looks at the high level concepts, team 2 takes their findings and refines them into a launch spec of sorts, team 3 takes over once launch spec is defined (defined meaning signed off on, not a rolling chassis). Team 3 will be the team who develop the car for winter testing and during the season.

Now I can't say for certain all teams use this same system, but some structural derivative will be in place at Merc/RB/Fer..

IF RB show up with a new RB14 this year, that car will have surely had multiple design teams hands on it and be around 2 years in process.

What you describe in "how F1 teams work" is simply the proper development process of a car a team is committed to and only refers to a single unit who work on the car, not the entire development team who is responsible for bringing a car from paper to track. That's what's so impressive about F1, the depth of process that goes into creating these prototypes. In season development is only one small aspect.

You think the guys/gals who set the original concept in motion are the same ones working on updates for Spa???

We're talking about completely different processes.

I'm intrigued about where you got this idea of approach from. Without definitvly saying I'm right, I can pretty much assure you you're wrong.

In interviews with both Adrain Newey and Pat Symonds they stated the following approach:
- Mid 2015, the very same senior members from each team who defined the regulations stared working on their car concept.
- Late 2015 more senior members joined in the decision making progress to define the baseline of the car.
- Early 2016: Development resources slip between 2016/2017 cars.
- By April/May most teams fully allocated all resources to the 2017 project
- Late 2016: production of long lead-time parts.

I believe there are no 2nd or 3rd teams. Instead there are senior members who look ahead, while the "bulk" works on development and is assigned workload or projects as is seen fit.

The concept of a new car cannot initially be worked on be an entire team. Most of the concept definition phase is about decision making, which the most senior staff do on their own. Than successivly more personell is added to the project.

So now we are in stable regulations. By May/June 2017 senior members will have started working on the 2018 cars and defining the concept. Then workforce will be allocated step by step.

There is obviously a period between car launch and start of concept definition of the next car where senior members can put their attention towards the current car. I believe this is what's happening at Red Bull and that they discovered some flaws in pre-season testing which are to be fixed in Barcelona. No entirely new car or "RB14", just some fixes accourding to what the lead time allows them to introduce.

There are multiple interviews with the mentioned members, as well as Allison and Green who lay out the process as discribed.

Edit: Just got the book Total Competition delivered today, will see if there's anything of interest to this particular matter in there

Thank you for agreeing with my rough definition - we're saying the same thing whether you like it or not.

2018 car was started last year , RB would be 12 mos behind if they start in may 2017 like you state.

The fact that we're only in the first year of new regulations means the advance teams are even more important. RB's advanced team got it wrong (if the new car rumors turn out to be true), the decisions they made were most likely made in 2015.

If they do show up with a new car, which is a possibility, then most likely this is the RB14 accelerated. They only way they could have pulled the trigger on production was if the heavy lifting was already done (which would be impossible if the SR guys didnt start till may).

This would be the same for all teams.

[gandharva]

So all rumors have been true. Revised car will debut in Barcelona.