Influence of Pirelli tyre pressure on 2017 contenders

[ENGINE TUNER]

I can understand that a team might have given a higher downforce figure because they expected to reach that figure after some more development, but in the end have not. Perhaps it's not fraudulent information, but unintentionally misleading. In any case the design of the tyres and the design of the car are so integrated these days, I think it's entirely reasonable for Pirelli to expect to receive accurate information and data from the teams.

Was Merc required to give pirelli their downforce levels for Bahrain or for Monaco? Or were they expected to give pirelli downforce levels for their pre updated Spain car or the heavily updated Spain car? The downforce levels provided by the teams is nothing but a suggestion to pirelli, it is fully up to pirelli to provide tires that are safe and useable for all the teams regardless of what info the teams give them.

[ENGINE TUNER]

That is absurd, they wouldn't be "keeping pressures artificially high", they would be keeping the pressures consistent through the weekend. Unless there is a safety reason to lower the pressures(THERE IS NOT), there is no logic behind lowering the pressures.

The pressures have been run since pre-season testing and to suddenly change them and in the middle of the weekend is biased.

Your logic is absolutely flawed.

The logic is to open the performance window of the tires as they learn more about them.

Seems as good of a reason as any to change minimum PSI.

I guess if "your" favorite team/driver seems unable to find performance with the tires at any pressure then yeah, it seems biased.

The only valid reason to change minimum psi in the middle of a race weekend is safety and that would only be to raise it. "open the performance window" is not a valid reason because it can be biased towards one or several teams. Maybe the FIA should lower the amount of race fuel allowed mid weekend, that should be fair.

[Big Mangalhit]

Tyre pressure had always changed from track to track and from practise to race if Pirelli sees that they can go lower without safety issues. Ideally the pressure should always be freed and chosen by the team. But pirelli made a minimum pressure rule when they had a lot of blowouts in Silverstone. Of course this limit should not exist and when pirelli sees that they can broaden the limits without risk of failure they do (righteously so). And indeed this year there are not many failures.

Some proof: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/126008

Monza:

Several drivers complained about the pressures being too high at Spa last weekend, though no changes were made, and the feeling has been much the same at Monza.

But following analysis of the data from first and second practice on Friday, Pirelli has brought the pressures down.

The teams were originally given minimum pressures of 23.5 psi on the fronts and 21.5 psi for the rears.

That has now been reduced by 0.5 psi at the front and 1 psi at the rear, creating new minimum pressures of 23.0 and 20.5 psi respectively.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/07/ ... it-matter/
Austria:

Speaking in Austria on Thursday, Jenson Button said that the tyre pressures for this weekend of 22PSI front and 19.5PSI rear were far too high.

Isola addressed this on Friday and said that the solution may be close: “It depends what we see in terms of starting running pressures, ” said Isola. “If we see consistent numbers then we might relax it a bit.

Different form practise to race and from race to race.

Final thoughts:

How are the mandatory tyre pressures set?
Pirelli receives data from all the teams from its running on the simulators at their factories ahead of the race weekend. They base the pressures for Friday running based on the worst case scenario, which is normally the faster cars.
Then after Friday practice they receive detailed telemetry data from the FIA from all the cars and that should correlate with the simulation data. If they see anomalies then they investigate. They can either lower or raise the pressures based on that Friday data.
On the older tracks, the ones where teams have extensive experience and more accurate simulations, the data is normally very accurate. On newer tracks it can see some variations.
Since the Russian GP this year, the FIA has had the ability to monitor tyre pressures and temperatures in real time and that has revealed that some of the cleverer teams have found ways to get around the rules.
“We’ll be happy to reduce the pressures if we are satisfied that teams are not manipulating the pressures and temperatures, ” said Isola.

So has you can see setting a minimum pressure is and artificial constriction to the car with only one purpose: safety.

So what is the worse here?
Having teams send fake data to make the rules more constrictive in a zone where your team has an advantage?
Or have the highest degree of freedom to setup your car as long as safety is due, therefore maximising the speed of every car to their design?

For me it is very very clear

[ENGINE TUNER]

"fake data"? Is that like "fake news"? whatever you don't like it is easy to just stamp it fake and throw it out of the window?

What if Merc gave pirelli their anticipated Spain update downforce level or even Monaco downforce level for that matter while several other teams gave Australia or Bahrain? Does that make any of them "fake data"?

For any rule change to happen within 1 year of the new rules being published requires a unanimous agreement by the teams, maybe they should do the same with the tire pressure changes mid weekend.

[Big Mangalhit]

Forget the fake data. Even if it is real data. If pirelli sees they can relax on the constrains without lost of safety they should do it has they always had. Stop being biased just because you want them to lock the rules in a way that would fit your team. The pressure of the tyres should always be up to the team except for safety concerns nothing more. It should not be used to lock teams in a position where one would have and advantage.

Read the links I sent on the other post maybe that will open your eyes a bit

[Big Mangalhit]

For any rule change to happen within 1 year of the new rules being published requires a unanimous agreement by the teams, maybe they should do the same with the tire pressure changes mid weekend.

Jeez read the pages. Tyre pressures are no rule, they are just a safety measure and should not even be mandated at all if teams would not go crazy and dangerous chasing performance. I actually would prefer that the pressure should be 100% decided by the teams even if they would risk some blows.

Also the minimum pressure has to be changed from circuit to circuit and need to be analysed with data from the FP to better judge. Just read before you post

[ENGINE TUNER]

Forget the fake data. Even if it is real data. If pirelli sees they can relax on the constrains without lost of safety they should do it has they always had. Stop being biased just because you want them to lock the rules in a way that would fit your team. The pressure of the tyres should always be up to the team except for safety concerns nothing more. It should not be used to lock teams in a position where one would have and advantage.

Read the links I sent on the other post maybe that will open your eyes a bit

You call me biased, I call you biased, whatever, I read the links and still say changing the rules or tire specs mid weekend is wrong except for safety reasons. The teams design and tune the cars a certain way and the spec tire supplier come and decide who they prefer to win the race by choosing to or not to change the tire specs. Sounds like fair stuff to me/s.

Flexible rules for everybody and everything YEAY!!!!

[Stormy]

2013 there were 4 different teams that won in the first 10 races, pirelli changed the tires because of several high profile tire blow ups and RBR/VET went on to win every single race after that. Is that a conspiracy theory? In that case they changed the tire spec in the name of safety, what is their excuse now? They have no grounds to change the tire parameters, especially when it could favor one team more than the other.

The tire testing that the 3 mule cars did was supposedly completely blind. VET and/or Ferrari may not have even tested the tires that were chosen for 2017. There were 96 different prototype tires tested by pirelli on the mule cars, what percentage of those 96 do you think VET/ferrari tested? How would they know to design their car around any of those 96 different prototypes, especially if they didn't even test the final chosen spec. RBR designed their car around what they considered the prototype tire with the best characteristics by the data given to the teams by pirelli and have since admitted that they got it wrong. VET's and RAI's tire testing meant nothing towards the choosing of the 2017 tires, nor did it mean anything toward the design of the 2017 Ferrari.

The only valid point you have put forward is the FIA's reinterpretation of the Merc & RBR trick suspensions.

Still, Seb and Kimi did way more testing and provided Pirelli with the best and most reliable feedback thus influencing Pirelli's decision on the tires. That's why Ferrari had an idea which prototype tire is going to be used. Mercedes didn't have that insight because they didn't do that much amount of testing and didn't provide Pirelli with the necessary amount of feedback.

[Phil]

However unfair or not, I think at some point teams will have to realize that it's just the way it is and that the pressures requirements have been lowered changing the characteristics slightly. It's no different than 2013, when the construction of the tire was changed mid season on safety grounds. The question is; can Mercedes solve their tire issues or is it so within the DNA of the car and the design choices that they have made that it will not be solvable?

[Big Mangalhit]

However unfair or not, I think at some point teams will have to realize that it's just the way it is and that the pressures requirements have been lowered changing the characteristics slightly. It's no different than 2013, when the construction of the tire was changed mid season on safety grounds. The question is; can Mercedes solve their tire issues or is it so within the DNA of the car and the design choices that they have made that it will not be solvable?

At some point? Pirelli changes the minimum pressure for each race and then uses the data of FP to see if they can further lower the pressure even more. That is the way it has been since at least last year. It is perfectly normal to change pressure according to the track, even more it is a requirement.

Last year pressures were way to high, almost every driver complain including Hamilton. This meant that every team was using minimum because it has the best performance. There was even claims that Mercedes was cheating by running lower than admitted pressures. An indeed in Monza Lewis had 0.3 psi below the minimum and Nico a full psi below.

Ideally and if safety permits the minimum pressures mandated should be as low as possible as the only reason they exist is safety. That way teams will calibrate the pressure to best suit their car which will not be the lowest possible cause obviously at a certain point lower pressure will be detrimental for performance.

This is what you should have a full range of choice and each times selects the best pressure for their car and for that respective track. Obviously this can only happen inside a safety parameter determined by pirelli that obviously changes according with the track characteristics.

[Big Mangalhit]

Forget the fake data. Even if it is real data. If pirelli sees they can relax on the constrains without lost of safety they should do it has they always had. Stop being biased just because you want them to lock the rules in a way that would fit your team. The pressure of the tyres should always be up to the team except for safety concerns nothing more. It should not be used to lock teams in a position where one would have and advantage.

Read the links I sent on the other post maybe that will open your eyes a bit

You call me biased, I call you biased, whatever, I read the links and still say changing the rules or tire specs mid weekend is wrong except for safety reasons. The teams design and tune the cars a certain way and the spec tire supplier come and decide who they prefer to win the race by choosing to or not to change the tire specs. Sounds like fair stuff to me/s.

Flexible rules for everybody and everything YEAY!!!!

Just two questions

Imagine a situation that the pirelli tyre would not have any pressure limit, upper or lower. Would that be giving an advantage to anybody?


My answer would be NO. Because each team can optimize the value to their car and ofc that value needs to change from track to track, tyre to tyre even with temperatures probably.

Now imagine Pirelli setting a really high minimum pressure, would that be giving the advantage to anybody?

My answer would be yes because whatever team works with higher pressure will gain an artificial advantage because all the others are forced to start working outside their optimal range.

What are yours?

[Stormy]

Wow, and where did you get that idea from? Is that a direct quote from Pirelli? Again there were 96 prototype tires tested by Pirelli, there is no guarantee that ferrari or VET or RAI even tested the tire that was eventually chosen as the 2017 spec.

If pirelli is deciding the tires to use based on ferrari/VET/RAi feedback and not the data at hand then they are more corrupt, biased and incompetent then I ever imagined.

Most of the data at hand comes from the drivers' feedback. Having said that, Seb and Kimi who did the most testing, especially Seb, gave the data Pirelli needed and formed their final tire because of that feedback. Unfortunately for Merc, Lewis is not quite the worker and didn't provide Pirelli with his insight.

[LionKing]

However unfair or not, I think at some point teams will have to realize that it's just the way it is and that the pressures requirements have been lowered changing the characteristics slightly. It's no different than 2013, when the construction of the tire was changed mid season on safety grounds. The question is; can Mercedes solve their tirhe issues or is it so within the DNA of the car and the design choices that they have made that it will not be solvable?

The point is there is no such thing as tire pressure requirement in F1.

Pirelli tells the teams that at this circuit soft, medium, hard, etc are safe to race for so many laps, and with such and such pressure range in front and rear. And those values changes from race by race.

It makes sense to start conservatively on Friday and as data available, then relax the limitations. Even more so if there is fake data being fed by some teams. I am sure even the final pressures are well within tire capability as Pirelli would not want another episode of damaged, exploding tires, etc

Same it has been last year...

[Phil]

However unfair or not, I think at some point teams will have to realize that it's just the way it is and that the pressures requirements have been lowered changing the characteristics slightly. It's no different than 2013, when the construction of the tire was changed mid season on safety grounds. The question is; can Mercedes solve their tire issues or is it so within the DNA of the car and the design choices that they have made that it will not be solvable?

At some point? Pirelli changes the minimum pressure for each race and then uses the data of FP to see if they can further lower the pressure even more. That is the way it has been since at least last year. It is perfectly normal to change pressure according to the track, even more it is a requirement.

Last year pressures were way to high, almost every driver complain including Hamilton. This meant that every team was using minimum because it has the best performance. There was even claims that Mercedes was cheating by running lower than admitted pressures. An indeed in Monza Lewis had 0.3 psi below the minimum and Nico a full psi below.

Oh I wasn't disagreeing. I was more saying that at some point, all teams [including Mercedes] will have to move on and accept that Pirelli has gone too conservative with their tire pressures and thus will allow a broader range to be used that ultimately also moves the performance optimum into a different range.

To some degree, I can understand the posts by Engine-Tuner. Pirelli was asked specifically to create a sensitive tire that operates at its full potential in a very narrow window. Teams therefore will try to exploit that as best as they can. If Friday practices thus far this year has been any indication, the Mercedes seems to cope rather well under higher pressures relative to the other teams. Once the pressure requirements are lowered however, the other teams catch up and Mercedes tire wear goes from being acceptable to problematic [again relative to the competitors].

In a sport where every detail and ounce of performance counts, these things add up and can become a major performance differentiator.

I am still of the belief that Mercedes has the quickest car in qualifying and race-trim when it works. However they do seem to have very big issues on the especially the US tires and tracks that feature predominantly low speed corners that then limits how much grip they can achieve and how much performance [lap time] they can extract. We will see if they can solve this. Mercedes have a very unique design with their car: They have achieved a lot of downforce with a low-rake design and a longer wheelbase. Low rake means they are more limited on how much spring they can use on the rear suspension.

Following another article on AMuS, it is also clear that Ferrari invested a lot of time to understand the 2017 tires last year when they had an opportunity. Not only did their main drivers in Seb and Kimi do most of the testing, Ferrari was was also the only team that showed up with a car that had a 2017-spec rear-wing. Other teams like Mercedes just used a second wing (beam-wing?) among other things to simulate higher downforce levels.

[WaikeCU]

Actually, I find it quite wrong to have only 3 teams testing the Pirelli compound out for the following season in the early stage. I believe Ferrari were first and then Merc and Red Bull. It actually took quite some time before other teams managed to get to know the new Pirelli compound. I think it was the test at Abu Dhabi after the final race. If your look at the performance order this day, then those 3 teams are still the front runners. I suppose it's an advantage to have the honor being first. I think these days, there's massive data that can be collected. I think part of Ferrari's advantage this day is won because of that.

EDIT: Actually come to think of that. It should be like the NFL draft system. Being the worst team can draft first. So the worst team in the standing should be the first to test out the new compound.