Sebastian Vettel has escaped further penalties for his clash with Lewis Hamilton at the most recent Azerbaijani Grand Prix. The German Ferrari driver met with the FIA today in Paris, and admitted full responsibility for the events that occurred.
A black and orange flag appears out if the blue and totally out of the norm and at that very moment Seb gets and can receive his penalty. Convenient, VERY.
That wasn't really my point at all... the headrest coming off is a safety issue for the driver in the car and for other drivers on the track. If it came out of the car and distracted Hamilton causing a crash then he could have suffered serious injury, it would only have come off at high speed and HANS only protects in a head on impact so worst case is a broken neck.
There are a finite number of stewards (3 + the race dircetor) so I see the order as - during the red flag their attention is on directing the track clean up and deciding and monitoring what teams can do the the cars in the pits - race gets under way they're talking about the Vettel incident - Hamiton's headrest comes loose, this is now a safety issue so takes precedent - after telling team to pit and fix issue they finish investigating Vettel and give the penalty. There is no conspiracy.
Fine so the next time someone takes the law into their own hands like Vettel did it will just be a stop and go then? I think we both know the answer to that question.
Personally, id ban the pair, Hamilton was clearly trying to back up the pack however something slowed him. Vettel with his road rage was dangerous. Id ban both for two races, bring both drivers to both races, send VET to anger management classes, send HAM to drivers standards classes. Place WHE in the Mercedes, place GIO in the Ferrari and then Sauber can get a pay driver for two races, maybe bring back NAS for them?
These standards need to be stopped as this will now bubble away. This will now bring bad blood into the championship, both are gonna wrong each other more than once. This will end badly, this could get worse than HAM/ROS. The FIA need to nip it in the bud, ban both, apportion blame equally, both are the victim, and it sends a message into the paddock for all to see and be heeded.
Bad driving standards and practice needs to be sorted now. Id like to see a rule on when the safety car leaves the pack, the leader must apportion to a delta all safety car line 1 or some line on track when they can go hell for leather, maybe 1KM from turn 1?
If neither Mercedes driver got any bans last year during their multiple clashes and crashes(Spain, and Austria to name a few), then they won't get bans this year, not for this at least.
I don't particularly care for the he said she said, I will say that any further incidents would absolutely merit a ban. Vettel's internet temper makes him volatile at times, I understand the desire to win, and partially this behavior is encouraged by the team's desire to win as well. The stakes are high, naturally emotions will creep in as the contest is so close that any disadvantage seems disasterous, continuous unsportsmanlike behavior should not be tolerated however. I'd say Vettel is on thin ice right now, and Hamilton challenging him "man to man" isn't helping his cause either.
I think that was different. I don't think Merc in those situations would file a complaint against themselves to the stewards. That's just like shooting yourselves in the foot. Knowing Merc wants to get as many points as possible in the Constructors.
I mean looking at this whole controversy, it feels a little bit Prost-Senna'esque and it could lead to a mix of the '89-'90 seasons, meaning if Seb could get away so easily with his actions. Imagine a situation where the two are in the title deciding final race and one of the two has to finish (first) to win the Championship and they run each other off the track at turn 1. What would then happen?
I have made this point higher up. That was the mistake they made back then. The were clearly giving the drivers far too much leeway and were not seen to be using the rules fairly and didn't nip it in the bud.
What I find amazing is that us who are only spectators can see it. How the hell can those in charge not see the pandora's they have just opened?
daniellammers wrote:Lewis could decelerate as much as he wanted, he was leading the pace, and was entitled to do so.
Not true he has keep pace as he is the safety car effectively once the safety car is coming in to the pits. It is his job to maintain the pack while staying no less that 10 car lengths behind the safety car unless there is a reason for being further behind. He should not be weaving or braking harsh as that is causing a safety issue on a restart. It seems he was not weaving and was less than 10 cars from the safety car. He did brake on the apex of the corner but the FIA must feel it was not severe enough to warrant a pen.
Personally it should be made a rule that under safety car conditions cars cannot use warming techniques through tight corners when making a mistake could result in an accident. That corner in particular is tight but the area just after would be fine for warming.
Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk
The rule states "no less". This indicates that he must be more than 10 car lengths behind during a restart. With F1 cars being a lot faster than the SC anything closer than 10 car lengths could cause an accident if they catch the SC and then have to take evasive action.
Therefore, if the SC is slow (something Lewis complained about) then he has no choice but to reduce his own speed in order to not break any rules himself.
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
Perhaps I am wrong but its no the first time that there is some controversy around Hamilton when he is leading the package under SF. Perhaps there is something questionable in his acting.
Personally, id ban the pair, Hamilton was clearly trying to back up the pack however something slowed him. Vettel with his road rage was dangerous. Id ban both for two races, bring both drivers to both races, send VET to anger management classes, send HAM to drivers standards classes. Place WHE in the Mercedes, place GIO in the Ferrari and then Sauber can get a pay driver for two races, maybe bring back NAS for them?
These standards need to be stopped as this will now bubble away. This will now bring bad blood into the championship, both are gonna wrong each other more than once. This will end badly, this could get worse than HAM/ROS. The FIA need to nip it in the bud, ban both, apportion blame equally, both are the victim, and it sends a message into the paddock for all to see and be heeded.
Bad driving standards and practice needs to be sorted now. Id like to see a rule on when the safety car leaves the pack, the leader must apportion to a delta all safety car line 1 or some line on track when they can go hell for leather, maybe 1KM from turn 1?
If neither Mercedes driver got any bans last year during their multiple clashes and crashes(Spain, and Austria to name a few), then they won't get bans this year, not for this at least.
I don't particularly care for the he said she said, I will say that any further incidents would absolutely merit a ban. Vettel's internet temper makes him volatile at times, I understand the desire to win, and partially this behavior is encouraged by the team's desire to win as well. The stakes are high, naturally emotions will creep in as the contest is so close that any disadvantage seems disasterous, continuous unsportsmanlike behavior should not be tolerated however. I'd say Vettel is on thin ice right now, and Hamilton challenging him "man to man" isn't helping his cause either.
I think that was different. I don't think Merc in those situations would file a complaint against themselves to the stewards. That's just like shooting yourselves in the foot. Knowing Merc wants to get as many points as possible in the Constructors.
I mean looking at this whole controversy, it feels a little bit Prost-Senna'esque and it could lead to a mix of the '89-'90 seasons, meaning if Seb could get away so easily with his actions. Imagine a situation where the two are in the title deciding final race and one of the two has to finish (first) to win the Championship and they run each other off the track at turn 1. What would then happen?
Crashing your opponent off track (like Senna, Prost, Schumacher and Rosberg in some extend in the past) is still different then, in a neuralised moment, drive alongside your opponent, steer into him and then slide back to your position like nothing happened. No other WC ever did this. It wasn’t tactics like other incidents.
Road rage has no place in F1. Even hotheads like Piquet never used their car, they got out, walked up to the guy and punched them.
The worst bit that one the one hand Vettel acts like it didn’t happen and on the other hand said that Hamilton got it coming.
He’s got a serious problem. I can see drivers like VES and HAM now going to push Vettel’s buttons. It’s going to be fun
One thing I haven't read by anyone yet (maybe I missed it) was
There was no way Vettal could think Hamilton was ready to Bolt and go for it, as the safety car was still in view and they still had the last corner (braking point) to go. The safety car needed to be another 200 yards up the road before Lewis could floor it. So Vettel (plus his fans) cant use the excuse of "he thought Lewis was going to floor it"
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.
New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC
Road rage has no place in F1. Even hotheads like Piquet never used their car, they got out, walked up to the guy and punched them.
The worst bit that one the one hand Vettel acts like it didn’t happen and on the other hand said that Hamilton got it coming.
It's quite clear he drove into him by accident by not countersteering when he pulled next to hamilton and was waving his hands. And that's also probably the reason he got a 10s stop go and that's it.
He's acting like it didn't happen because he does not want to give a tiny bit away to the overzealous FIA. Like, is tihs really so hard to understand lol.
Remember alonso/massa incident in 2010 when team order were not allowed? Go watch that post race interview and you'll see all the hilarious stuff alonso was coming up with.
One thing I haven't read by anyone yet (maybe I missed it) was
There was no way Vettal could think Hamilton was ready to Bolt and go for it, as the safety car was still in view and they still had the last corner (braking point) to go. The safety car needed to be another 200 yards up the road before Lewis could floor it. So Vettel (plus his fans) cant use the excuse of "he thought Lewis was going to floor it"
Great point. So this makes the situation even worse. What was Vettel thinking? I am very confused now...
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
One thing I haven't read by anyone yet (maybe I missed it) was
There was no way Vettal could think Hamilton was ready to Bolt and go for it, as the safety car was still in view and they still had the last corner (braking point) to go. The safety car needed to be another 200 yards up the road before Lewis could floor it. So Vettel (plus his fans) cant use the excuse of "he thought Lewis was going to floor it"
Great point. So this makes the situation even worse. What was Vettel thinking? I am very confused now...
He did not expect ham to bolt, but he did not expect him to crawl almost to a halt either (50 kph).
One thing I haven't read by anyone yet (maybe I missed it) was
There was no way Vettal could think Hamilton was ready to Bolt and go for it, as the safety car was still in view and they still had the last corner (braking point) to go. The safety car needed to be another 200 yards up the road before Lewis could floor it. So Vettel (plus his fans) cant use the excuse of "he thought Lewis was going to floor it"
Great point. So this makes the situation even worse. What was Vettel thinking? I am very confused now...
He did not expect ham to bolt, but he did not expect him to crawl almost to a halt either (50 kph).
I don't buy that. This was the 3rd restart and according to the telemetry from the FIA (I do not have it, but I believe them to at least not lie about it) the corner entry/exit speeds of Hamilton was consistent with the previous restarts? So why did Vettel bolt?
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
I can see the reason Vettel tought it was a brake test, but the fact still is Hamilton didn´t do anything wrong, SC had switch its lights off so Lewis, as the leading car, was the one stablishing race pace. In that situation, he can brake if he wants to and it´s the chasing car responsability to not crash into him. But he didn´t brake!!
Still, Vettel took it as a dirty move, and reacted with an even dirtier move intentionally crashing into him. So even if we take Hamilton move as a brake test, Seb reaction still deserve a much more strict penalty. And Hamilton didn´t brake test him so...
Politics again played its role in F1. Disqualifying Vettel with Hamilton leading the race would have probably ruined the WDC battle, so they decided to ignore a childish and dangerous move and manage it as a racing incident, when it was not. That´s my opinion
Why would Vettel intentionally ride into the back of Lewis? Was there anything for him to gain?
Why would any driver intentionally run out of track? But we see that at all GPs... weird, isn´t it?
Vettel was trying to keep close to Lewis for the restart, and got surprised when Lewis didn´t accelerate wich caused first collision, Vettel fault 100% even if not intentional
One thing I haven't read by anyone yet (maybe I missed it) was
There was no way Vettal could think Hamilton was ready to Bolt and go for it, as the safety car was still in view and they still had the last corner (braking point) to go. The safety car needed to be another 200 yards up the road before Lewis could floor it. So Vettel (plus his fans) cant use the excuse of "he thought Lewis was going to floor it"
I think this is something the FIA needs to look at with this course, the length of the straight & the speed differential to the safety car has now caused problems every year. Last year we saw Matsushita in GP2 cause chaos at the restart as he caught the safety car before it left the track. This year we saw Merc tell Hamilton they thought the first restart was a bit close. I think this contributed to the coming together between Ham & Vet as Vet might have been expecting Ham to go early again but after how close the first one was Ham decided to allow more time to let the safety car get away.
IMO - Vettels penalty should not be dependent on Hamiltons race result. Hamilton lost the race because of a head-rest issue that was (probably) entirely unrelated to the incident with Vettel. Call it bad luck or something, but that's just how it goes sometimes.
I do get a bit of a sour taste after the punishment was just issued in the exact moment Hamilton's headrest problem started to unfold and I can't quite shake the feeling the stewards were desperately trying to have an "out" that would let them punish Vettel without it having any direct effect on the race result. The timing just seemed a bit off, convenient.
I am also amazed any such maneuver would not provoke a more severe punishment. Sadly, I think the stewards and the sport has missed a golden opportunity for an adequate punishment without a big dent on the WDC here and now has to face questions regarding their own inability to do so.
Anyway, the interview I was referring to post race by Channel 4, here's a word-for-word (best effort):
CH4: You received a penalty for dangerous driving, what happened when you drove alongside him, did you turn in deliberately?
VET: Ah... well, I think it was very clear, I think in the end we are racing with men, so, I don't have radio to him, but I think if we get a penalty, then we should both get a penalty.
CH4: Why were you surprised then, that you got a penalty for dangerous driving, we heard you questioning on team-radio...
VET: ...because I think, whatever, I guess, I was, was running in the back of him, but you know same for him, with the brake checking, so, as I said, we're all grown ups, we're men, so emotions running high in the car, but, yeah, we want to race, we want to go wheel to wheel, but not when it's, you know the re-start, and as you saw afterwards, he did very well on the restart and i had nothing to answer, so, he outsmart me then, but before it was just unnecessary.
CH4: up until this point, it had been a pretty respectful fight so far this season, and ...
VET: it's still respectful, I know where you might be getting, might get that but I don't have a problem with him. I just think it's one action today that was wrong and I think if I get penalized, then he should get penalized, so but. how many times, probably every sunday in premiere league, you have referees blowing the whistle and some players agreeing and some disagreeing, so, that's sport at the end of the day, but for sure, 10 seconds is an awful long time when you stand there and you have nothing to do.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II #Team44 supporter
Fine so the next time someone takes the law into their own hands like Vettel did it will just be a stop and go then? I think we both know the answer to that question.
Maybe I didn't explain well enough, I agree that the 10 second stop-go was insufficient and suggested some longer penalties, but it was the hardest they could go without resorting to a DSQ which I think would be too hard line. The last situation like this I remember is Maldonado on Hamilton in Spa qualifying (2011 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi ... shortfilms) or Maldonado and Perez in free practice at Monaco (2012 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr4ei0 ... p-fp3_auto). Neither resulted in a race ban, Maldonado was only given a 5-place penalty http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94028 for the Hamilton incident and a 10-place penalty at Monaco. This may not be the last we hear of this though, there is precedent for the FIA to tack on additional penalties if they feel the original was too lenient.
#aerogandalf "There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica
This whole thread would've been avoidable if they had done a much more spectacular standing start after red flag. Why was it not the case?
As for the incident I for once actually think it was rightly done by the FIA.Ham has no fault at all, Vet is in fault here. Vet didn't gain anything by is shunt and was given the strongest penalty I've seen in ages. I think it was fair. I don't think he sould've been given the black flag because he didn't gain anything from his actions. It would've been different if he collided into the bodywork of Ham. The same way as I think that if Bottas stayed in the front pack after colliding with Kimi he would've gotten a penalty but because he was sent far far back they did nothing.
Just my opinion I understand if you disagree.
What makes this seem unfair was the headrest problem.
On a side note I quite like the more lenient FIA this year.
