2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

[Wynters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbSL8edgC3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV0-Vm8k4_8

And yet we're not questioning his competence are we? Stop fricken overreacting for f**** sake.

Those incidents are showing other drivers, from a decade ago, and one of the incidents is under racing conditions. I believe that you were asked to explain why you are under the impression that one of the finest racing drivers of his generation, near the peak of his powers, with years of experience of F1 under his belt, doesn't have sufficient talent or skill to control his car, at c.60kph, under the SC. If you can't produce supporting evidence of your assertion that Vettel is unable to safely control his vehicle at low speeds, then it's possible that it isn't a reasonable explanation for what happened, no?

[turbof1]

Vettel considered he was brake tested and took revenge by his own intentionally crashing into Lewis. That´s unsportsmanlike no matter how you look at it, even if we consider Lewis did brake test him, what he didn´t, so Seb reaction is even more innappropiate. I think a 10 seconds stop&go penalty for an unsportsmanlike behaviour wich caused a colision is a joke

I don't think the collision was deliberate on Vettel's part, because he simply forgot to countersteer after he got alongside and waving his hands, and the FIA probably thinks so as well, so "only" 10s stop go. Stupid, yes. Intentional, no.

He fogot to countersteer????

That´s even more comical to those stating he lost control because he was waving his hand and with only one hand in the wheel he couldn´t control the car.... Like if F1 wouldn´t need to control his wheel with one hand several times per lap to adjust mappings, brake bias, drinking, radio coms, differential lock...

What sort of F1 driver can´t control his wheel with one hand or forget to use the wheel to avoid a contact with the car he´s looking at?


Sorry guys, but your excuses to justify Vettel are comical. He got distracted and assumed Lewis did brake test him, getting upset and reacting badly under pressure. You won´t ruin Vettel´s reputation by accepting this, but you´re ruining your own inventing funny excuses. No F1 driver will loose control because of using only one hand in the wheel, and no F1 driver will crash with any other car because of forgetting to use the wheel

Let's not forget that Vettel was reduced to pure rage during that moment. He was arguably not in control of his car, his actions, himself.

Also do realize absolutely nobody is making excuses here for Vettel. You are interpreting the discussion about whether or not Vettel intentionally hitting Hamilton as a means to minimize what he did. That's not what is going in here, so please stop trying to discredit people who are debating this. It's trying to understand what got into Vettel's head and whether or not he was in control. If he was, shame on him. If he was not, shame on him too for loosing control. I think the big issue also is that people fear that if he was perfectly in control and knew exactly what is doing, it would really be terrifying as that would mean he would have psychopathic traits. Rather, people rather hope he was just blinded by rage and that he isn't like that normally.

For the record, there's no room for red mist moments on the track. If you need to let loose of some steam, punch eachother in the face outside the car. But using multi million dollar equipment as improvised projectiles all the while jeopardizing other driver's their health, that needs to be punished hard and severely.

[jjn9128]

Fine so the next time someone takes the law into their own hands like Vettel did it will just be a stop and go then? I think we both know the answer to that question.

Maybe I didn't explain well enough, I agree that the 10 second stop-go was insufficient and suggested some longer penalties, but it was the hardest they could go without resorting to a DSQ which I think would be too hard line. The last situation like this I remember is Maldonado on Hamilton in Spa qualifying (2011 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi ... shortfilms) or Maldonado and Perez in free practice at Monaco (2012 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr4ei0 ... p-fp3_auto). Neither resulted in a race ban, Maldonado was only given a 5-place penalty http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94028 for the Hamilton incident and a 10-place penalty at Monaco. This may not be the last we hear of this though, there is precedent for the FIA to tack on additional penalties if they feel the original was too lenient.

Fair enough. Sorry for the reaction.

No worries.

[Vanja #66]

To be honest, I'm disappointed with how poor memory people seem to have. This wasn't the first time Hamilton does such slow and controversial SC restarts, so to categorically reject even the slightest possibility that what he did was cunning and intentional (and let's not insult his intelligence and experience, if he wants to do something like this and avoid penalty - he has the skill to do it) is baffling. There is a considerable history of Hamilton's controversial moves and this was one of them. There is also a history of Vettel outbursts and this was one of them. And both of them have been accused and penalized rightfully and wrongfully and that will not change...

[Gothrek]

Best comment I have read so far on JAonF1:

First HAM might not have "technically" brake tested VET, but just because he didn't slam on the brakes doesn't mean that the intent was not there. HAM was warned by his own team on the previous restart on the distance to the safety car. (Which he ignored.) Its fine to bunch up the field behind you, but there is a right way to do it. (i.e. not to accelerate into a corner and then suddenly lift at the apex) That said there is no rule against being stupid, so "technically" HAM is in the right.
Second I'm not so sure anyone can say with certainty that the contact was intentional. At the time of contact VET was gesturing wildly with one hand on the wheel as he was turning to look at HAM. If you've ever been distracted in a car you know the tendency is for your hand to to move and drift the car in the direction of your attention. I have not seen a replay which shows VETs right hand which was holding the wheel. Maybe one exists. I haven't seen it, if it doesn't exist then only VET knows what was in his heart and everyone else is speculating. Still it was a bone-headed move and likely intentional. I wish VET would use his head and not his emotions even though he had a right to be upset.
Third safety cars are too slow. Instead of having a road car leading the field there should be a more capable car out there. I'm sure Merc has paid a lot to be the official safety car, but I would think that there would be near universal agreement that it creates dangerous situations when high adrenaline restarts are combined with low temperature tires and brakes.
HAM openly calls for team orders again by asking BOT to destroy his race to help him get a ahead of VET. For a guy who doesn't want or need #1 status he sure asks for a lot of help...
Lastly I was initially hoping for a contrite VET, but I think I'm okay with the response (and the penalty - it was tough and fair). VET drives way more like HAM's hero Senna than HAM does. On some level you have to respect that, but that would require a level of even-handedness among those who would elevate Senna to one of the greats for doing much worse (on multiple occasions) that frequently does not exist on this site. I bet HAM will think twice about the next adventurous maneuver with him.
No matter whose side you take we have a cracking championship race this year... We can all agree on that!

[turbof1]

To be honest, I'm disappointed with how poor memory people seem to have. This wasn't the first time Hamilton does such slow and controversial SC restarts, so to categorically reject even the slightest possibility that what he did was cunning and intentional (and let's not insult his intelligence and experience, if he wants to do something like this and avoid penalty - he has the skill to do it) is baffling. There is a considerable history of Hamilton's controversial moves and this was one of them. There is also a history of Vettel outbursts and this was one of them. And both of them have been accused and penalized rightfully and wrongfully and that will not change...

Right, but there is nothing controversial about this particular restart. Hamilton did exactly the same thing the 2 previous restarts. The FIA made it very clear there was nothing wrong with Hamilton's restart.

And neither is this a "Hamilton's original": most if not all drivers back up the pack at the restart as this gives them a strategic advantage when race pace is assumed. This is done a couple of decades now.

[TAG]

https://youtu.be/1gL71yXEWtE

The video clearly shows that he drove into Hamilton straight, his car was angled until the point of contact when he finally steers out of it. Can we stop with the ridiculous, you don't see his hand turn into him to he couldn't have done it on purpose excuses? It's baffling to be having these discussion with people that will accept no other outcome than Vettel being absolved of all responsibility.

[bonjon1979]

I don't think the collision was deliberate on Vettel's part, because he simply forgot to countersteer after he got alongside and waving his hands, and the FIA probably thinks so as well, so "only" 10s stop go. Stupid, yes. Intentional, no.

He fogot to countersteer????

That´s even more comical to those stating he lost control because he was waving his hand and with only one hand in the wheel he couldn´t control the car.... Like if F1 wouldn´t need to control his wheel with one hand several times per lap to adjust mappings, brake bias, drinking, radio coms, differential lock...

What sort of F1 driver can´t control his wheel with one hand or forget to use the wheel to avoid a contact with the car he´s looking at?


Sorry guys, but your excuses to justify Vettel are comical. He got distracted and assumed Lewis did brake test him, getting upset and reacting badly under pressure. You won´t ruin Vettel´s reputation by accepting this, but you´re ruining your own inventing funny excuses. No F1 driver will loose control because of using only one hand in the wheel, and no F1 driver will crash with any other car because of forgetting to use the wheel

Let's not forget that Vettel was reduced to pure rage during that moment. He was arguably not in control of his car, his actions, himself.

Also do realize absolutely nobody is making excuses here for Vettel. You are interpreting the discussion about whether or not Vettel intentionally hitting Hamilton as a means to minimize what he did. That's not what is going in here, so please stop trying to discredit people who are debating this. It's trying to understand what got into Vettel's head and whether or not he was in control. If he was, shame on him. If he was not, shame on him too for loosing control.

For the record, there's no room for red mist moments on the track. If you need to let loose of some steam, punch eachother in the face outside the car. But using multi million dollar equipment as improvised projectiles all the while jeopardizing other driver's their health, that needs to be punished hard and severely.

For me the real issue is that the FIA did determine that he deliberately drove into hamilton as 'steered' implies a deliberate act rather than accidental:

'The Stewards examined video evidence which showed that car 5 drove alongside and then steered into car 44'

So if this is their determination all this talk about whether or not it was accidental is entirely moot. They had all the information that none of us have and this is their determination which is what makes it all the more baffling that he received such a seemingly small penalty.

Bare in mind that for not staying above the required speed during a safety car max verstappen was given 3 penalty points. Seb got the same for deliberately crashing into another car during a safety car period as well as causing a collision when he rear-ended Hamilton.

[Wynters]

Also do realize absolutely nobody is making excuses here for Vettel. You are interpreting the discussion about whether or not Vettel intentionally hitting Hamilton as a means to minimize what he did. That's not what is going in here, so please stop trying to discredit people who are debating this. It's trying to understand what got into Vettel's head and whether or not he was in control. If he was, shame on him. If he was not, shame on him too for loosing control.

For the record, there's no room for red mist moments on the track. If you need to let loose of some steam, punch eachother in the face outside the car. But using multi million dollar equipment as improvised projectiles all the while jeopardizing other driver's their health, that needs to be punished hard and severely.

It can be debated as to whether or not it was a logical decision for someone to react as Vettel (and Maldonado) did and some posters have made excellent points relating to it (I found the post saying that Vettel might genuinely have forgotten what happened to be quite insightful and interesting). Regardless, it is clear that Vettel swerved his car into Hamilton's.

However, there are a small number of people on the forum who are clearly claiming that Vettel did not steer into Hamilton and at least one who is claiming that the whole thing is some sort of FIA conspiracy against Vettel. Asking these people to produce some sort of evidence to support their position whilst, at the same time, outlining the ridiculous implications of their stance (that Vettel is unable to safely control a vehicle, travelling in a straight line, whilst free-wheeling under the Safety Car...it's more reasonable than the car seeking revenge for itself, but I suppose that's also an option) is surely reasonable?

If nothing else, the conversation has produced some immortal headlines. "Four-time World Champion forgets to steer!" is my current favourite.

[Andres125sx]

Also do realize absolutely nobody is making excuses here for Vettel.

Sorry but disagree with this. Saying Vettel didn´t crash with Hamilton because he forgot to turn the wheel or because he lost control when using only one hand in the wheel to me looks like an excuse to deny it was intentional and unsporstsmanlike, like if it was some sort of accident, when going alongside the car in front of you under SC and turning into him is intentional and unsportsmanlike no matter what the precedents are

If it´s intentional it´s not an accident by definition, but some Vettel fanboys are desperately trying to show it only was an accident (not intentional). To me that´s making an excuse, very poor, but an excuse anycase.

[Andres125sx]

To be honest, I'm disappointed with how poor memory people seem to have. This wasn't the first time Hamilton does such slow and controversial SC restarts, so to categorically reject even the slightest possibility that what he did was cunning and intentional (and let's not insult his intelligence and experience, if he wants to do something like this and avoid penalty - he has the skill to do it) is baffling. There is a considerable history of Hamilton's controversial moves and this was one of them. There is also a history of Vettel outbursts and this was one of them. And both of them have been accused and penalized rightfully and wrongfully and that will not change...

Agree, I also wondered about that but to me that only did apply until I did watch Lewis onboard. He didn´t brake, so that should instantly solve any doubt.

But even if he would have brake test him, that does not justify Vettel to intentionally crash into Hamilton

[turbof1]

Also do realize absolutely nobody is making excuses here for Vettel.

Sorry but disagree with this. Saying Vettel didn´t crash with Hamilton because he forgot to turn the wheel or because he lost control when using only one hand in the wheel to me looks like an excuse to deny it was intentional and unsporstsmanlike, like if it was some sort of accident, when going alongside the car in front of you under SC and turning into him is intentional and unsportsmanlike no matter what the precedents are

If it´s intentional it´s not an accident by definition, but some Vettel fanboys are desperately trying to show it only was an accident (not intentional). To me that´s making an excuse, very poor, but an excuse anycase.

Again, shame on him if he was in control, shame on him too if he wasn't. In both cases he would be wrong; it's just changes the context on the background. And, no in my eyes unintentional bumping into Hamilton is not something I'd describe as an accident in this case. Rather, Irresponsible actions leading up to a crash. Parallel example: If I drink 20 beers and cause a fatality in traffic, that will never be passed as an accident, because I put myself in a situation where I did not have any control anymore.

So no, not being in control does not change this into some sort of innocent accident. Most will agree with that. For the record, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I think the bump was to a degree intentional, as in consciously steering input to hit Hamilton's car.

[Wynters]

First HAM might not have "technically" brake tested VET, but just because he didn't slam on the brakes doesn't mean that the intent was not there. HAM was warned by his own team on the previous restart on the distance to the safety car. (Which he ignored.) Its fine to bunch up the field behind you, but there is a right way to do it. (i.e. not to accelerate into a corner and then suddenly lift at the apex) That said there is no rule against being stupid, so "technically" HAM is in the right.

Telemetry review showed he did none of the above.

Second I'm not so sure anyone can say with certainty that the contact was intentional. At the time of contact VET was gesturing wildly with one hand on the wheel as he was turning to look at HAM. If you've ever been distracted in a car you know the tendency is for your hand to to move and drift the car in the direction of your attention.

Most people don't have the car control of a 4xWDC. 'drift the car in the direction' and 'swerve sharply' are two different things, no?

Third safety cars are too slow. Instead of having a road car leading the field there should be a more capable car out there. I'm sure Merc has paid a lot to be the official safety car, but I would think that there would be near universal agreement that it creates dangerous situations when high adrenaline restarts are combined with low temperature tires and brakes.

Agreed on the speed issue, this isn't the first time it's been a problem. However, I don't think that blaming Mercedes for choosing a road car is a sane position though. I suspect the FIA mandate the specs of the vehicle.

HAM openly calls for team orders again by asking BOT to destroy his race to help him get a ahead of VET. For a guy who doesn't want or need #1 status he sure asks for a lot of help...

I believe Hamilton asked Bottas to help with the proviso that he should only do so if he wasn't racing anyone. Bottas was, so the request was rightly denied. This is standard. See Ferrari's use of RAI, Mc-H's use of VanD and split strategies all the way down the field and across every manufacturer. Whatever brings the team the most points.

[marmer]

Hamilton was correct that a vsc would have been appropriate for what was debris on track and it's the most fare way to not influence the race coincidentally would have not allowed this incident to occur no explanation of why it was not a vsc

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

[Juzh]

Agree, reading Vettel comments he´s not apologizing or anything, but trying to convice people his reaction after first collision was appropiate...

So no remorse after intentionally causing a collision as a revenge, FIA should take note and act, but if they do the season is over, so once again politics will be prioritized over what is fair/sportsmanlike and Vettel will not receive any further penalty

Location: "madrid, Spain"
You should be well aware of alonso's famous hockenheim interview back in 2010. Here's a little reminder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVoLbUyI0YE

Alonso knows full stop the team orchestrated his win via forbidden team orders, yet is using every trick in the book dodging question after question, even though everyone knows he's flat out lying. That's because admitting anything would potentially fuel fia to pursue the matter further than they would otherwise. What's happening now with Vettel is EXACTLY the same story. Of course he's not going to admit a single thing and/or self-incriminate himself in the press, yet people are expecting him to do just that lol.

If you need to look at my location to then assume I´m a fanboy you must be missing any argument to keep the discusion alive

Also, how my location (Madrid, Spain) means somethin with a Vettel-Hamilton incident?

As an spaniard I should hate them both equally, as both of them have been tough Alonso´s rivals . What sort of twisted reasoning are you using to imply my location has some relevance when discussing about a Vettel-Hamilton incident?

In Spain we have a saying I´m not sure if it will make any sense when translated, but I´ll try anycase, my free translation says: "thiefs assume everyone is a thief to justify their robberies". If you assume I´m a fanboy with no reason that probably means the fanboy is you

I ain't saying you're a fanboy, just that by being Spanish your favourite driver is probably alonso, and as such should have remembered the BS he was spitting in that interview before blasting other drivers with the same treatment.
And because you seem to have some knowledge of F1 it seemed massively short-sighted not to understand why vettel's dodging questions in the press.