2017 United States Grand Prix - COTA, 20-22 October

[KeiKo403]

there isn't a rule on corner cutting though. There is a rule on track limits. Max broke that rule on track limits, but many others did too, just differently.

[NathanOlder]

Yeah, and the track limits rule is all about gaining an advantage. And when they have to evaluate each situation, they think

"Is cutting the corner and passing someone gaining an advantage "

Only die hard Max fans could disagree with that one.

Running wide on exit, done by everyone over the weekend is either, let them all off, or penalise them all. And as it wasn't fully enforced on friday morning or in the driver briefing, then it makes sense to let them off unless there were any unusual circumstances to which i cannot think of.

When it comes to gaining an advantage by cutting a corner, the stewards have been 100% consistent. Which is what we want isn't it

[Restomaniac]

Yeah, and the track limits rule is all about gaining an advantage. And when they have to evaluate each situation, they think

"Is cutting the corner and passing someone gaining an advantage "

Only die hard Max fans could disagree with that one.

Running wide on exit, done by everyone over the weekend is either, let them all off, or penalise them all. And as it wasn't fully enforced on friday morning or in the driver briefing, then it makes sense to let them off unless there were any unusual circumstances to which i cannot think of.

When it comes to gaining an advantage by cutting a corner, the stewards have been 100% consistent. Which is what we want isn't it

Hamilton himself said the drivers told Charlie that they WERE getting an advantage because they could get on the power 10M earlier when he said they weren't. So the stewards knew all too well that going off track there was gaining an advantage but they did nothing.

It is selective stewarding to pick out 1 instance of 'gaining an advantage' when Hamilton has categorically stated that they knew and turned a blind eye to 'gaining and advantage' elsewhere.

There was a long conversation on here about the stewards being to soft on track limits on Friday. It turns out they are just very,very selective.

This for me is the point.
Was Max's penalty correct? Totally.
Were the stewards incorrect to turn a blind eye when they had been told they were wrong by the actual frigging drivers themselves? Totally.
They can't have it both ways. They either penalise for 'gaining an advantage' every time of not at all.

Just how bad is Charlie Whiting's judgment as a 'gamekeeper' when it needs the 'poachers' themselves to point out --- he is supposed to have a grip on?

Also Verstappen was in the drivers meeting obviously. So he has sat there and heard Charlie Whiting denounce gaining an advantage all weekend. He then sees a chance and takes it thinking 'well they're not penalising for gaining an advantage' and wallop they do. I'd be a little cheesed off too. This is what happens when you don't steward or referee consistently.

[CBeck113]

I have already said this, but one more time: this is a topic which is discussed in the driver meeting, so I am sure they knew where it was "allowed" (not seen to be an advantage or any other reason). That move by Max was fun to watch, but clearly against the rules and had to be punished. Is that so difficult to fathom? The only open point is that we, the viewers, do not know where running outside the track limits was allowed...that can be solved by issuing a minutes of meeting including this information (they can cut out the private stuff not necessary for the public to know).

[KeiKo403]

I'm not saying that Max didn't deserve a penalty. In any other race he'd totally deserve a penalty.

What baffles me though is how Charlie has to say track limits are being enforced in corners x, y & z this weekend. It should be the other way around surely. As in, it goes without saying that track limits are going to be enforced everywhere but then for Charlie to say you can go wide at corner x & z.

If I got pulled over for driving 80mph on the motorway and fined etc I'd be miffed to see someone drive past in excess of 100mph and not get pulled over because the cops we're dealing with me. Point is, I still got a penalty which I deserved, irrelevant of what someone else was doing, not as bad or worse.

We (nor professional stewards) shouldn't judge a driver against his peers, we should judge them against the regulations.

[Restomaniac]

I have already said this, but one more time: this is a topic which is discussed in the driver meeting, so I am sure they knew where it was "allowed" (not seen to be an advantage or any other reason). That move by Max was fun to watch, but clearly against the rules and had to be punished. Is that so difficult to fathom? The only open point is that we, the viewers, do not know where running outside the track limits was allowed...that can be solved by issuing a minutes of meeting including this information (they can cut out the private stuff not necessary for the public to know).

You are assuming that they had said 'It's only allowed in turn 9 and turn 19' instead of them dismissing the drivers concerns over gaining an advantage period. Hamilton stated that Charlie did dismiss their comments though.
That is all we know. We have had no mention of any subtext.

[Restomaniac]

I'm not saying that Max didn't deserve a penalty. In any other race he'd totally deserve a penalty.

What baffles me though is how Charlie has to say track limits are being enforced in corners x, y & z this weekend. It should be the other way around surely. As in, it goes without saying that track limits are going to be enforced everywhere but then for Charlie to say you can go wide at corner x & z.

If I got pulled over for driving 80mph on the motorway and fined etc I'd be miffed to see someone drive past in excess of 100mph and not get pulled over because the cops we're dealing with me. Point is, I still got a penalty which I deserved, irrelevant of what someone else was doing, not as bad or worse.

We (nor professional stewards) shouldn't judge a driver against his peers, we should judge them against the regulations.

TBH it's more like drivers on the M62 doing 80MPH and getting fined with drivers doing 80MPH on the M1 being let off or ignored.

[CBeck113]

I have already said this, but one more time: this is a topic which is discussed in the driver meeting, so I am sure they knew where it was "allowed" (not seen to be an advantage or any other reason). That move by Max was fun to watch, but clearly against the rules and had to be punished. Is that so difficult to fathom? The only open point is that we, the viewers, do not know where running outside the track limits was allowed...that can be solved by issuing a minutes of meeting including this information (they can cut out the private stuff not necessary for the public to know).

You are assuming that they had said 'It's only allowed in turn 9 and turn 19' instead of them dismissing the drivers concerns over gaining an advantage period. Hamilton stated that Charlie did dismiss their comments though.
That is all we know. We have had no mention of any subtext.

Exactly, which is why I added the bold text above. This is an important point in the driver meeting, and since most were going wide in numerous corners to have a higher speed (an obvious advantage, I do agree), then that should have been cleared up ... but we the people don't get this information, and instead have these wonderful discussion which end up as "my driver is better than your driver" or "your driver is simply sh*t". Gotta love it...

[Restomaniac]

I have already said this, but one more time: this is a topic which is discussed in the driver meeting, so I am sure they knew where it was "allowed" (not seen to be an advantage or any other reason). That move by Max was fun to watch, but clearly against the rules and had to be punished. Is that so difficult to fathom? The only open point is that we, the viewers, do not know where running outside the track limits was allowed...that can be solved by issuing a minutes of meeting including this information (they can cut out the private stuff not necessary for the public to know).

You are assuming that they had said 'It's only allowed in turn 9 and turn 19' instead of them dismissing the drivers concerns over gaining an advantage period. Hamilton stated that Charlie did dismiss their comments though.
That is all we know. We have had no mention of any subtext.

Exactly, which is why I added the bold text above. This is an important point in the driver meeting, and since most were going wide in numerous corners to have a higher speed (an obvious advantage, I do agree), then that should have been cleared up ... but we the people don't get this information, and instead have these wonderful discussion which end up as "my driver is better than your driver" or "your driver is simply sh*t". Gotta love it...

True but I'm no Verstappen fan. Seriously I'm not. However looking at it impartially it's rather likely that as a driver when you hear the boss of the stewards prettybmuch say 'Na f... it track limits are fine do what you like'. You do just that.
Hardly surprising that you get an annoyed driver when they are penalised when they do that.

If you don't show consistency in your rule application then what do the expect drivers to do? Drivers and animals that would run over their own mothers to win and will take every advatange going.
I would love to know if Verstappen would have tried that if Charlie and his stewards had been tough on track limits. I have a sneaking feeling he wouldn't.

[Just_a_fan]

The whole point of my argument was to say that cutting a corner is worse than running wide but you see them as the same thing which i find very odd. The reason Max was done was because he was the ONLY one to cut the corner. So just accept that and we can move on.

Your argument remains incorrect. Cutting corners is not against the rules. Gaining an advantage is. That is the fact of the matter.

I deal with legislation on a daily basis which is why I understand that the words of the rules are all important.

[NathanOlder]

The whole point of my argument was to say that cutting a corner is worse than running wide but you see them as the same thing which i find very odd. The reason Max was done was because he was the ONLY one to cut the corner. So just accept that and we can move on.

Your argument remains incorrect. Cutting corners is not against the rules. Gaining an advantage is. That is the fact of the matter.

I deal with legislation on a daily basis which is why I understand that the words of the rules are all important.

Cutting corners is not against the rules , yeah ok pal, have fun in la la land,

Explain to me why Max got penalised then.

As cutting a corner is worse than running wide. Thats just some common sense when it comes to motorsport. Now i have no idea how long you have been "just_a_fan" and maybe if you got yourself on to a track you would see the sense in what I say. This is why they put an ex driver in the stewards room and not just a fan.

[Ennis]

The whole point of my argument was to say that cutting a corner is worse than running wide but you see them as the same thing which i find very odd. The reason Max was done was because he was the ONLY one to cut the corner. So just accept that and we can move on.

Your argument remains incorrect. Cutting corners is not against the rules. Gaining an advantage is. That is the fact of the matter.

I deal with legislation on a daily basis which is why I understand that the words of the rules are all important.

Cutting corners is not against the rules , yeah ok pal, have fun in la la land,

Explain to me why Max got penalised then.

As cutting a corner is worse than running wide. Thats just some common sense when it comes to motorsport. Now i have no idea how long you have been "just_a_fan" and maybe if you got yourself on to a track you would see the sense in what I say. This is why they put an ex driver in the stewards room and not just a fan.

You're debating a different point. He is not disputing common sense, or whether 'cutting a corner' sounds worse than going 'wide on exit'; he is saying that "cutting a corner isn't against the rules, gaining an advantage is". Which I believe he is correct on.

Whether me, or you, or anyone else believe the rule is correct or worded correctly is irrelevant to that. The rules are what the rules say.

[KeiKo403]

27) DRIVING
27.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
27.2 Drivers must observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits at all
times.
27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not
deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part
of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race
director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.
27.4 At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be
deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.

Again for reference, these are the rules.
Corner cutting isn't a specific rule, as in order to cut a corner, that means to exceed track limits. Hence going fully over the white lines with all 4 wheels, be it on entry, exit, apex, inside or out - that is exceeding track limits. That's what the rules is, that's what Max fell foul of, but it's also what most other drivers fell foul of too.

[NathanOlder]

They would still have to penalise Max, as he shortened the lap. Cut the corner, that Must 100% of the time be punished.

The thing is, if you don't care about track limits you find that people make the track shorter by driving a longer line. If I can drive around the outside of a tight corner I will drive further but do so much quicker. Result is a lower lap time i.e. I have "shortened the lap".

So you either apply track limits or you don't. You don't pick and choose which ones to apply just because someone "shortened the lap".

The rules don't mention track length, they mention "advantage". Going outside track limits in full control is always done to "gain an advantage". That's why it's done.

"One rule for all or no rule for anyone" is the key.

This whole thing came from this. Just a fan said the drivers would take a longer line to make the lap shorter. Wrong. If longer was shorter they wouldnt touch an apex. But they do, alomost every corner in fact.

Track limits ARE picked at each track. Thats why they have a driver briefing. As someone said, Hamilton apparently asked about the running wide bit and charlie said its ok. So running wide was ok. No one said EVER that cutting the corner is ok. But running wide was cleared!

If the Hamilton questioning Charlie about running off at corner exits are true and if Charlie said its ok to do so is true then Max has no leg to stand on, and needs a slap for even questioning Charlie.

And all his fans need to accept that and get on with it.

Max has had SOOOO much leniency from the Stewards since entering. He's lucky to get this far.

Fact is Charlie said no. So tough luck team orange.

[Sieper]

it is not per se the cutting the corner part Nathan, but the gaining an advantage part whilst doing so, the rule is actually worded quite good:

Sainz cut the same corner in the same way but failed to overtake ocon, no (at least position) gain hence no punishment
Max cut the corner and did not fail to overtake kimi so gained an advantage by doing so and thus gets punished.

For me the mitigating factor is that Kimi left a gap, Max went for it and only then (too late) Kimi tried to close the door, then Max went off track to avoid the collision and then Kimi veered back outwards, at that point Max should have steered outwards again but he remained on his trajectory and the stewards feel (apparently) that that was illegal, he should have given the position back.

To me that is still a bit harsh (as when another driver forces you of track you are allowed there) but otoh as Max took advantage of it the punishment can be given.

Team Orange? the other person is a lawyer and the other a non max fan) I am an orange Max fan though) and can defend the decision to punish.