2017 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 27-29 October

[turbof1]

So when is a door not a door?
When it's ajar.

Nobody answered me. When is a crash not a crash but a racing incident? When your front wing takes out the tire of an opponent's car and ruins his race, usually you are penalized if it's your fault, right? It doesn't matter if you meant to do it on purpose or it was an accident. It matters if it was your fault.
So answer my previous post please too:

<<<Even if Vettel didn't crash on purpose, shouldn't he be penalized for hitting two other cars anyway? And ruining another car's race? And leaving track with 4 wheels to get an advantage a couple of times during the race?
I mean back a few years ago when he T-boned Button's car he didn't mean to do that, he lost control, but took Button out all the same and he was punished. He was driving a Red Bull at the time not a Ferrari though.
What gives?>>>

Alright, I am willing to provide a serious answer on that. However, you will to accept that you will not get a satisfying answer. I know how you feel about it, and as long as you are unable to relativate it, you will be stuck with that feeling.

When is a crash not a crash but a racing incident?

That question cannot be answered with something like a black and white answer. There's something called the multidimensional truth, where different answers all make sense and are truthful.

-For the race directors/stewards, that would involve using the race directions they got to see if a case complies to what they consider a racing incident. Race directions view first lap cases always as race incidents, unless grave errors where made against safety. For instance, going off track and practically dive bombing back onto the track right in front of other cars would still be a punishable act as it brings other driver's physical integity in danger. This is an example, but you get the jist. Vettel's case is not considered grave enough for the stewards for the first lap.

-For someone who views this neutrally, and I do consider myself that as I neither am fan of Vettel or have any hate for him, besides that a moderator always should display neutrality, the actions from Vettel looked panicking and clumsy, trying desperately to either stay ahead (Verstappen) or get a good line up behind the car in front (Hamilton). However, for me this was blind panick and not intentional cutting tyres. Intent makes all the difference for me. There's no ill will from Vettel; I find any notion of him using his wing as a razor blade quite absurd. Some might call that being naïve, I call that being realistic as it obviously showed to disadvantaging Vettel as well. So no bad intentions, just clumsy. I think that deserves a reprimand as he has shown to not really pay attention. In my book the intent and the mistake you make determines judgement, not the end result of the mistake. So ruining someone's else race should not determine, for me, the degree of punishment. Only the mistake that led to it.

For the record, this is where I heavily disagree with the FIA, who punished Grosjean in 2012 with a race ban for taking out championship contenders. The FIA explicitly put that in their motivation, implying it could have been more lenient when only none-contenders got picked up by Grosjean. That is highly unethical in my book.

-Also mind my definition of a crash: for me that is a car coming into contact with objects and being damaged beyond able to continue the race. I don't see the Vettel case as a crash, but that leans to semantics.

And leaving track with 4 wheels to get an advantage a couple of times during the race?

-Again this is where the stewards have their directions...

-...but I personally think these directions are unsufficient. Not per se for track cutting though. Interestingly enough, Charlie Whiting commented in the Mexican drivers meeting that track cutting is a rather new phenomenon (of the last decade, that is). Tracks used to be punishing enough that nobody needed rules in the first place to handle track limits. So we are dealing with a very large grey area. I can't blame Vettel trying his luck and taking advantage of that grey area. I'm 100% against what he in person showed, but I don't deem it just that he gets punished for going beyond track limit as long as there are no clear cut rules on this and track simply invite to go beyond track limits. So no, Vettel shouldn't be punished for leaving track, just the same as Verstappen should not have been punished last race, meaning the application of Verstappen's punishment strokes with my idea of track limits, but does not stroke with general application of punishment.

[Edax]

The contact with Hamilton looked odd and very preventable. Maybe not foul play but a temporary lapse of concentration, having to cope with the fact that he dropped from pole to third and broke his front wing on VES.

Whether it needs to be punished. Personally I thought it was a bit too aggressive. To put it in Vettel's own words: “ he hit me twice in two corners what the f**** are we doing here”. Then 3 contacts with two cars in two corners is certainly a bit too much.

It is tempting. Not punishing him it led to an enjoyable race. Though I can imagine HAM pictured something different for his championship drive. And Ves was lucky to escape with only minor damage.

But in the end punishment should not depend on position in the championship or status. I am pretty sure that if Maldonado or Kyviat pulled such moves on their competitiors they would get a penalty, then so should Vettel.

[Restomaniac]

The contact with Hamilton looked odd and very preventable. Maybe not foul play but a temporary lapse of concentration, having to cope with the fact that he dropped from pole to third and broke his front wing on VES.

Whether it needs to be punished. Personally I thought it was a bit too aggressive. To put it in Vettel's own words: “ he hit me twice in two corners what the f**** are we doing here”. Then 3 contacts with two cars in two corners is certainly a bit too much.

It is tempting. Not punishing him it led to an enjoyable race. Though I can imagine HAM pictured something different for his championship drive. And Ves was lucky to escape with only minor damage.

But in the end punishment should not depend on position in the championship or status. I am pretty sure that if Maldonado or Kyviat pulled such moves on their competitiors they would get a penalty, then so should Vettel.

For me this is the key point and I made it last week.
When drivers have no clue what the rules of engagement are from corner to corner and from driver to driver is there any wonder we get them questioning the stewards and/or pushing the limits.
Vettel has had a lenient time of it in parts in 2017. Now although maybe not deliberate I imagine if he for a split second thought a penalty was coming he would have been far more calculated in his blind panic.

[Sieper]

And that is the big thing I guess we all feel, your standing also seems to influence the punishment. Just like in football. I guess it simply cannot be ruled out.

Hamilton thought Vettel did it on purpose. Or at least he felt he had something to win by implying that he Thinks that. I agree with it a bit, but it was also in the spur of the moment and I am not 100% sure.

The stewards must face these dilemma's as well. Like last week with Max They probably felt they were being Fair. I like the laissez faire style most. But then the rules must not be taken advantage of, the spirit of them must be adhered to. I felt the Max Kimi overtake last week was still in the spirit of racing, allthough also clearly a rule was broken.

[foxmulder_ms]

And that is the big thing I guess we all feel, your standing also seems to influence the punishment. Just like in football. I guess it simply cannot be ruled out.

Hamilton thought Vettel did it on purpose. Or at least he felt he had something to win by implying that he Thinks that. I agree with it a bit, but it was also in the spur of the moment and I am not 100% sure.

The stewards must face these dilemma's as well. Like last week with Max They probably felt they were being Fair. I like the laissez faire style most. But then the rules must not be taken advantage of, the spirit of them must be adhered to. I felt the Max Kimi overtake last week was still in the spirit of racing, allthough also clearly a rule was broken.

I feel 100% the opposite. His move was outside the spirit of racing. Cutting a corner is cheating. It is not tough racing.

[ringo]

Vettel's car had enough grip and was fine. Formula 1 cars don't squirm around with these big fresh ultra soft tyres in the rear. Just watching the front wheels (not the steering wheel) you can see the car was stable and well flat. It was on its way up the track before vettel decided to dart left (look on the front wheels tick to the left) then he pulled it back in to the right. HAd he been out of control his car would have done more damage and veered more to the left.
But anyhow we all have our opinions; and i'm sure some day all of this will come to light.

As for drivers will championships in bad cars. I don't think that has ever happened in the history of the sport. The great man Fangio himself never done, and neither did shumacher or Senna or Prost. The 80's mclarens were very good cars from Lauda came back from retirement to win in 84? was it and they continued on an upward trend.
Just like Lewis in mercedes Senna racked up his championships in a top of the class car and nothing else. The Lotus was also a good car. Prost is the same, won championships and lost them in top class machinery after 83 through to the 90s. Very good cars for a decade had Prost.
We need to give credit where it is due, Hamilton and Vettel are worthy champions. Hamilton has a bit more gravity to his wins and records since there was more competition from teammates and rival cars, so he is slightly more accomplished and considered a great compared to vettel. But vettel is by no means an ordinary champion.

[TAG]

To me, the way Vettel handled the first few corners summed up his season. Under pressure and acting before thinking. Too eager. This I think started when he was leading the championship but knew Mercedes had the advantage. This made him take aggressive moves, risks, without always thinking ahead.
Hamilton (who had years like his in the past) “knew” the chances would come to him, not needed to force it.

You may be onto something there, perhaps it's not the "red mist" as it's come to be referred, but more a lack of maturity a lack of what needs to be done while under the constant pressure. We've seen time and time again that Vettel has a propensity to lose it, disproportionately so when things don't go his way or he's under duress. Perhaps I've been looking at it all wrong, only Vettel can answer; But your comment just led me to this thought...

Vettel has never competed in an F1 championship that he has lost. He's always won them when he had the car to do so. This year is the first time he's actually lost a championship that could have very easily gone his way. Lewis on the other had has experience in spades when it comes to losing championship that could have just as easily gone his way.

[Dazed1]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

[JonoNic]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

Stop this nonsense now.

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[GPR-A duplicate2]

Here is a good video analysis. Though it doesn't hold Vettel responsible, but I am interested in how Vettel is handling his steering, IN TURN 1 AND IN TURN 3. While he is fully locked the steering wheel to right on Turn 1 (1m12 sec), he veers it left in Turn 3 (3m26 sec), where Lewis was there, though there was plenty of room on the right. Observe.

[ringo]

To me, the way Vettel handled the first few corners summed up his season. Under pressure and acting before thinking. Too eager. This I think started when he was leading the championship but knew Mercedes had the advantage. This made him take aggressive moves, risks, without always thinking ahead.
Hamilton (who had years like his in the past) “knew” the chances would come to him, not needed to force it.

You may be onto something there, perhaps it's not the "red mist" as it's come to be referred, but more a lack of maturity a lack of what needs to be done while under the constant pressure. We've seen time and time again that Vettel has a propensity to lose it, disproportionately so when things don't go his way or he's under duress. Perhaps I've been looking at it all wrong, only Vettel can answer; But your comment just led me to this thought...

Vettel has never competed in an F1 championship that he has lost. He's always won them when he had the car to do so. This year is the first time he's actually lost a championship that could have very easily gone his way. Lewis on the other had has experience in spades when it comes to losing championship that could have just as easily gone his way.

Vettel would have been tougher mentally if he stuck it out with redbull and try to get back at Ricciardo for beating him that year. He would have appreciated digging deep and focussing and toughing it out in situations where the cards are stacked against you. He needs another tough teammate for him to be more humble and patient.

[ringo]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

https://i.imgur.com/eqFV5UE.jpg

Stop this nonsense now.

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It's not nonsense. What Dazed1 need to do now is show us a frame right before this one. Then we will see that the wheels are pointing straight and the car is indeed not understeering. We also see vettel's head locked onto hamilton's wheel. Drivers don't look across when they are correcting understeer; they look down the road.
Let's all be objective in what we are looking at here.
edit: In fact what makes it worse!! his steering is as if he is correcting oversteer... and the car was supposed to be "understeering".
So what do you call when a car is going in the direction you are turning the wheel? It's called steering and putting the car where you want it to be.. and that's into Hamilton's tyre.

[Sierra117]

I think it comes down to a few points.

On driver intentions: Nobody can ever know exactly what is in the heart of another person, let alone someone in a tense situation such as fast driving and championship points hanging. We can get close through cameras and telemetry and be all forensic about it, but at a certain point one reaches the point of diminishing returns and the benefit of analysis goes out the window.

On track limits: Since run-off areas are relatively new, it's better to have consistent, zero-tolerance rulings on all four wheels leaving the track. Like all rules, there are exceptions and I believe here the exception is when someone is deliberately pushed off. As aforementioned, one can get close via analyses and that can help figuring out the exceptions. Otherwise, leaving the track should be penalised regardless of driver or team. This would act as real deterrents like walls or gravel traps, without compromising driver safety (of cars, motorbikes, etc.).

Using these pointers I believe discussions can be much more fruitful. There's the camp that says Vettel slashed Lewis' tyres on purpose and there is the camp that rejects that. But both of them base the argument on intention (more or less). If we ignore driver intention, we then come to something we can actually work with. That is, that Vettel's car was the primary reason for compromising Lewis' car (not to mention his own). We have the rules dictating how to punish that. The exceptions are first-lap incidents. But one can see how much easier it is to deal with these things once we take away inconclusive variables such as driver intention. This would help set a precedent as well to stop drivers in future from being overly aggressive.

[sosic2121]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

https://i.imgur.com/eqFV5UE.jpg

Do you know that Hamilton and Verstappen made contact at exactly this moment.
Is it possible that Hamilton lifted?

[Jolle]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

https://i.imgur.com/eqFV5UE.jpg

look at the video instead of a single frame. Vettel was pushing to hard, fishtailing his rear, his steering went from left to right to catch the rear.

He's too eager and sliding into Hamilton.