2017 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 27-29 October

[F1NAC]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

https://i.imgur.com/eqFV5UE.jpg

Do you know that Hamilton and Verstappen made contact at exactly this moment.
Is it possible that Hamilton lifted?

Hamilton lifted and that surprised vettel who was fighting with the rear of his car

[notsofast]

I think it comes down to a few points.

On driver intentions: Nobody can ever know exactly what is in the heart of another person, let alone someone in a tense situation such as fast driving and championship points hanging. We can get close through cameras and telemetry and be all forensic about it, but at a certain point one reaches the point of diminishing returns and the benefit of analysis goes out the window.

On track limits: Since run-off areas are relatively new, it's better to have consistent, zero-tolerance rulings on all four wheels leaving the track. Like all rules, there are exceptions and I believe here the exception is when someone is deliberately pushed off. As aforementioned, one can get close via analyses and that can help figuring out the exceptions. Otherwise, leaving the track should be penalised regardless of driver or team. This would act as real deterrents like walls or gravel traps, without compromising driver safety (of cars, motorbikes, etc.).

Using these pointers I believe discussions can be much more fruitful. There's the camp that says Vettel slashed Lewis' tyres on purpose and there is the camp that rejects that. But both of them base the argument on intention (more or less). If we ignore driver intention, we then come to something we can actually work with. That is, that Vettel's car was the primary reason for compromising Lewis' car (not to mention his own). We have the rules dictating how to punish that. The exceptions are first-lap incidents. But one can see how much easier it is to deal with these things once we take away inconclusive variables such as driver intention. This would help set a precedent as well to stop drivers in future from being overly aggressive.

This.

[sosic2121]

Hamilton lifted and that surprised vettel who was fighting with the rear of his car

I tried to find Hamilton onboard video with telemetry, but couldn't find any.

[Jolle]

Hamilton lifted and that surprised vettel who was fighting with the rear of his car

I tried to find Hamilton onboard video with telemetry, but couldn't find any.

I think it's pretty obvious that Hamilton went as fast as he could without hitting VER (to much). At the onboard from Vettel it clearly shows that VET lost control slightly because he put in slightly to much gas (sliding rears). Trying to put this on HAM somehow is ridiculous and should go to the "fox news" section. Whats next? It's VER's fault because he wasn't driving fast enough?

No, it's quite simple, VET got caught at the start and was too eager to make it up, slided off the curb, a tad to much gas and slided into HAM's rear wheel. No intend but clearly VET's fault. And thats OK, thats racing on the edge.

[sosic2121]

Hamilton lifted and that surprised vettel who was fighting with the rear of his car

I tried to find Hamilton onboard video with telemetry, but couldn't find any.

I think it's pretty obvious that Hamilton went as fast as he could without hitting VER (to much). At the onboard from Vettel it clearly shows that VET lost control slightly because he put in slightly to much gas (sliding rears). Trying to put this on HAM somehow is ridiculous and should go to the "fox news" section. Whats next? It's VER's fault because he wasn't driving fast enough?

No, it's quite simple, VET got caught at the start and was too eager to make it up, slided off the curb, a tad to much gas and slided into HAM's rear wheel. No intend but clearly VET's fault. And thats OK, thats racing on the edge.

No one was putting this on Hamilton, nor saying Vettel is innocent. We are just talking about what actually happened.

But there are couple obvious facts.
-Hamilton had by far the best line out of T2 and T3, Vettel had worst line.
-Hamilton and Verstappen made contact, bits of Hamilton's front wing were flying around.(Actually he lost the most)

It possible/probable that after the crash hamilton lifted and Vettel was just too close to react.
I'm not trying to defend Seb, "started" this in T1, and IMO should have got penalty for pushing Max off.

[Jolle]

I tried to find Hamilton onboard video with telemetry, but couldn't find any.

I think it's pretty obvious that Hamilton went as fast as he could without hitting VER (to much). At the onboard from Vettel it clearly shows that VET lost control slightly because he put in slightly to much gas (sliding rears). Trying to put this on HAM somehow is ridiculous and should go to the "fox news" section. Whats next? It's VER's fault because he wasn't driving fast enough?

No, it's quite simple, VET got caught at the start and was too eager to make it up, slided off the curb, a tad to much gas and slided into HAM's rear wheel. No intend but clearly VET's fault. And thats OK, thats racing on the edge.

No one was putting this on Hamilton, nor saying Vettel is innocent. We are just talking about what actually happened.

But there are couple obvious facts.
-Hamilton had by far the best line out of T2 and T3, Vettel had worst line.
-Hamilton and Verstappen made contact, bits of Hamilton's front wing were flying around.(Actually he lost the most)

It possible/probable that after the crash hamilton lifted and Vettel was just too close to react.
I'm not trying to defend Seb, "started" this in T1, and IMO should have got penalty for pushing Max off.

there is a big difference in lifting (around 1G deceleration, same as an emergency brake in normal road car) and not going as fast as you possible can go, like, when there is a car in front of you... Hamilton didn't lift, he pushed maximal to stay as close to VER as possible.

VET didn't have his car under 100% control, thats it.

[sosic2121]

VET didn't have his car under 100% control, thats it.

Ohh, I agree with that.
He was pushing 110% to stay with them on the next straight. It's intentional tire slash that I find ridiculous.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

-Hamilton and Verstappen made contact, bits of Hamilton's front wing were flying around.(Actually he lost the most)

And yet, Mercedes did not change his front wing?

[sosic2121]

-Hamilton and Verstappen made contact, bits of Hamilton's front wing were flying around.(Actually he lost the most)

And yet, Mercedes did not change his front wing?

No, I don't think so.
(I didn't mean he lost a lot of his FW, but that lost the most since he was in very good position and maybe would be P1 after T4.)

[Jolle]

-Hamilton and Verstappen made contact, bits of Hamilton's front wing were flying around.(Actually he lost the most)

And yet, Mercedes did not change his front wing?

No, I don't think so.
(I didn't mean he lost a lot of his FW, but that lost the most since he was in very good position and maybe would be P1 after T4.)

They didn't indeed. I presume there is a protocol (the German influence! ) how much damage on the FW is acceptable and when it has to be changed.

Just imagine it in your head, with the Austrian accent of Toto: "we have a protocol for that"

[Manoah2u]

Changing his front wing would have added a 5 to 10 seconds to his pitstop no doubt, that would have set him back much further, and would have had him finish p10 at the very best, possibly even out of the points - on the other hand, changing his front wing probably would have resulted in a fully operational mercedes which could have made it easier for him to pass other cars, so it's a little difficult to judge the situation correctly. There always was a possibility that Vettel carved through the field faster - the Ferrari can handle hot wakes much better than the mercs - and if Vettel finishes somehow P2, that would mean Hamilton would have lost winnin the championship in Mexico due to changing his front wing, so they took the gamble to save that time and let him go at it since chances still were small Vettel would make P2 anyway, and Mercedes calculated he should be able to reach p8 with the damaged wing anyway, which would secure the title rather well.

so it was the right decision IF there ever was damage to the front wing causing the car to perform less.

it doens't matter though, he'w the WDC, end of story.

[Sierra117]

Changing his front wing would have added a 5 to 10 seconds to his pitstop no doubt, that would have set him back much further, and would have had him finish p10 at the very best, possibly even out of the points - on the other hand, changing his front wing probably would have resulted in a fully operational mercedes which could have made it easier for him to pass other cars, so it's a little difficult to judge the situation correctly. There always was a possibility that Vettel carved through the field faster - the Ferrari can handle hot wakes much better than the mercs - and if Vettel finishes somehow P2, that would mean Hamilton would have lost winnin the championship in Mexico due to changing his front wing, so they took the gamble to save that time and let him go at it since chances still were small Vettel would make P2 anyway, and Mercedes calculated he should be able to reach p8 with the damaged wing anyway, which would secure the title rather well.

so it was the right decision IF there ever was damage to the front wing causing the car to perform less.

it doens't matter though, he'w the WDC, end of story.

Actually, Lewis was also missing a much larger piece from the right side of his rear diffuser, which no doubt caused much aero issues, so even if they changed the front wing, there would still be that.

[Ennis]

Changing his front wing would have added a 5 to 10 seconds to his pitstop no doubt, that would have set him back much further, and would have had him finish p10 at the very best, possibly even out of the points - on the other hand, changing his front wing probably would have resulted in a fully operational mercedes which could have made it easier for him to pass other cars, so it's a little difficult to judge the situation correctly. There always was a possibility that Vettel carved through the field faster - the Ferrari can handle hot wakes much better than the mercs - and if Vettel finishes somehow P2, that would mean Hamilton would have lost winnin the championship in Mexico due to changing his front wing, so they took the gamble to save that time and let him go at it since chances still were small Vettel would make P2 anyway, and Mercedes calculated he should be able to reach p8 with the damaged wing anyway, which would secure the title rather well.

so it was the right decision IF there ever was damage to the front wing causing the car to perform less.

it doens't matter though, he'w the WDC, end of story.

I wonder how much Hamilton's issues in overtaking were overstated. It seemed like as soon as the team told him he doesn't need to run the tyres to the end, he suddenly developed the ability to overtake. I think his issue was really "trying to make these tyres last 70 laps with the hot air" rather than "can't overtake due to turbulent air".

Vettel, unshackled, carrying less car damage and expecting an extra pit stop anyway, just went for it more.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Changing his front wing would have added a 5 to 10 seconds to his pitstop no doubt, that would have set him back much further, and would have had him finish p10 at the very best, possibly even out of the points - on the other hand, changing his front wing probably would have resulted in a fully operational mercedes which could have made it easier for him to pass other cars, so it's a little difficult to judge the situation correctly.

When Hamilton came out of the pits, he was 13 seconds behind Sainz. Hamilton took 13 laps to come to within one second of sainz. After that, he spent another 12 laps behind him. So, even if Hamilton would have come out 20 seconds behind, he would have taken may be 15 laps, instead of 12 to be within 1 second. But, he would have had good exit out of last corner with a good front wing and could have cleared sainz within a lap or two, instead of spending 12 laps behind him. Hamilton was anyway going to come out last, after the pits as it was the first lap. So, nothing was risky.

There always was a possibility that Vettel carved through the field faster - the Ferrari can handle hot wakes much better than the mercs -

Unlike Vettel, Hamilton had major damage to the car and obviously had bad pace compared to Vettel. Hamilton had lost a big chunk of Diffuser, other than the front wing damage. On a track and conditions where Downforce was coming at a huge premium, to lose critical aero pieces obviously would have majorly dented the pace of the car, that resulted in him having difficulty in overtaking cars. Vettel luckily, could replace the front wing and did not lose any pace.

[TAG]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.

Stop this nonsense now.

You sound just like Baku, at some point you have to start listening to someone that's plainly telling you who they are. Idon't care whether he did or he didn't. But to deny what's in front of you simply because you can't bring yourself to believe it, is not their issue, it's yours.