2017 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 27-29 October

[Phil]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

The problem is some of you guys are micro analyzing frames when the story can't be described in its correct context in one single frame. A driver will be doing multiple direction changes on the steering wheel depending on how the car is moving across the tarmac. Just because he is pointing left, doesn't mean he wants to go left.

Before T3, the situation was as follows:

Both Max and Vettel were on the right side of the track, both heavily compromised because of them battling each other for position. Hamilton took T2 at a very different angle and thus was heading into T3 on the left side of the track with more speed and grip.

At this point (sorry, no screenshot), Hamilton was about to take T3 with the most speed as a result of having a much wider diameter of the corner. Both Vettel and Max were taking the very same corner, as a result of being on the far right, at a very shallow angle. This means that both their cars were always going to drift out on corner exit - or to counter-act that, they would have to shave off some speed to turn in and make the corner with margins. Obviously, they both didn't expect Hamilton to come flying on the left and when he did, at least Vettel was already committed to taking T3 as he had intended.

The rest is just the smallest of margins coming into play. Hamilton had to back out just a split second because Max was coming all the way to the left on corner exit and would have shaved his front wing off. Vettel, who wasn't quick enough to react, was still probably at 100% throttle and try to get the best possible exit speed and acceleration to have a chance to defend his position (against Hamilton) into the next corner. He ended up closer and nicked his rear-wheel...

[Sieper]

Vettel should have backed out in T2 after Ver beat him in T1, he then should have backed out after T3 (like ham did with Ver) after ham beat him as well.

We then would have had, Max, Lewis ans Sebastian battling it out.... ...but nooooooooohooo.

And next year the front end plate should be made of titanium and we can all sing "oh chariot" every other race.

[komninosm]

Remember when Hamilton hit Massa a few years back and caused him a flat tire? Hamilton was punished then (and same thing every other similar incident for every set of drivers except maybe teammates).

Remember when Vettel T-boned Button's car and then continued but received a penalty? Red Bull back then, not Ferrari.

Remember when Hamilton "illegaly" passed RAI and then gave position back and then overtook him again after the next turn? They penalized Hamilton for that too. And changed the rulebook after the fact. (Usually they change it before giving penalties, like the "Verstappen defense rule")

Why only FIARRARI escape punishment in your view?

[FrukostScones]

Zzzzzz Imagine VET not hitting anyone. How boring that race would have been.

[komninosm]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

https://i.imgur.com/eqFV5UE.jpg

Stop this nonsense now.

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It's not nonsense. What Dazed1 need to do now is show us a frame right before this one. Then we will see that the wheels are pointing straight and the car is indeed not understeering. We also see vettel's head locked onto hamilton's wheel. Drivers don't look across when they are correcting understeer; they look down the road.
Let's all be objective in what we are looking at here.
edit: In fact what makes it worse!! his steering is as if he is correcting oversteer... and the car was supposed to be "understeering".
So what do you call when a car is going in the direction you are turning the wheel? It's called steering and putting the car where you want it to be.. and that's into Hamilton's tyre.

How do you know Ferrari was understeering?
Where is it mentioned?
Thanks mate. This is damning evidence.

[Jolle]

Stop this nonsense now.

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It's not nonsense. What Dazed1 need to do now is show us a frame right before this one. Then we will see that the wheels are pointing straight and the car is indeed not understeering. We also see vettel's head locked onto hamilton's wheel. Drivers don't look across when they are correcting understeer; they look down the road.
Let's all be objective in what we are looking at here.
edit: In fact what makes it worse!! his steering is as if he is correcting oversteer... and the car was supposed to be "understeering".
So what do you call when a car is going in the direction you are turning the wheel? It's called steering and putting the car where you want it to be.. and that's into Hamilton's tyre.

How do you know Ferrari was understeering?
Where is it mentioned?
Thanks mate. This is damning evidence.

Just watch the Vettel onboard instead of a single image. Its very clear that he slides off the curb, putting in too much power.

Vettel has done plenty of silly things, but this was stupid mistake of applying to much power instead of trying to hit Hamilton.

[banjo789]

One frame before front wing parts began flying up from Vettel's left front. Note that Verstappen appears to be turning slightly right, moving center track, Hamilton is steering straight ahead, and Vettel is turning left.
Just saying.

Stop this nonsense now.

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Sorry, but your trying to make out that discussing a potential deliberate act of sabotage by Vettel against a fellow competitor isn't rational?

If this were a Court of Law the prosecution would not be allowed to bring up the defendants past convictions (something to do with a presumption of innocence), but this isn’t a court of law, so I will.



You can't run and hide from the fact that he's got form for this sort of behavior. Was it a one off or is he a serial offender!

Watching the video, isn't conclusive IMO. So you have to look at the context of the incident.

[turbof1]

Remember when Hamilton hit Massa a few years back and caused him a flat tire? Hamilton was punished then (and same thing every other similar incident for every set of drivers except maybe teammates).

Remember when Vettel T-boned Button's car and then continued but received a penalty? Red Bull back then, not Ferrari.

Remember when Hamilton "illegaly" passed RAI and then gave position back and then overtook him again after the next turn? They penalized Hamilton for that too. And changed the rulebook after the fact. (Usually they change it before giving penalties, like the "Verstappen defense rule")

Why only FIARRARI escape punishment in your view?

Remember when we had engines in the front, no seatbells and haystacks as barriers?

Past rulings are not applied anymore. We had a clear push the last couple of years where stewards have to be more lenients towards these situations. That's what is going on. All these situations you mentioned, apply them in the present and they will not be punished.

I am not denying the steward decisions somewhat benefited Ferrari. However, situational benefit is one thing, straightforward prefering a particular team is another thing. I think you are blowing that part out of proportion.

Btw, is it just me or is the fiarrari meme getting really old -.-? Common, I did the effort of giving a serious and well thought answer. The least you can do is return the curtosy by putting emotions aside.

[foxmulder_ms]

Guys... please don't be fanatics. It is not good. If one cannot see Vettel's intentionally hitting Hamilton, he is blinded by fanaticism. This is not supporting a sportsman, it is out right religion level blind belief

[turbof1]

Guys... please don't be fanatics. It is not good. If one cannot see Vettel's intentionally hitting Hamilton, he is blinded by fanaticism. This is not supporting a sportsman, it is out right religion level blind belief

I hope that was sarcasm.

[turbof1]

For the record, Vettel intentionally turning left into Hamilton already got debunked. Look for youtube channel driver61, an actual race driver, and load up the youtube video. He explained perfectly, with the video footage, that Vettel drove over the very bumpy part of the corner 3 kerb, causing a lot of oversteer. Infact, a mere moment before him counter steering into Hamilton, he already had to countersteer once.

It is obvious Vettel was fighting with the car. Another excellent point made by driver61: if Vettel was consciously thinking about driving into Hamilton, he would not have done so with the front wing. Chances are much higher you'll wreck your front wing and the defender gets away scot free. Infact, I very much believe Hamilton would have gone scot free if Vettel did not already hit Verstappen's tyre and created sharp edges. And please, do come up with something better than "oh but that was his master plan al along!".

This is what you get when people go blind in the red mist. I can certainly understand it as an initial reaction, but when we are having this discussion 2 days after, it is expected people examine the footage attentively instead of still having their emotions speak for themselves.

[komninosm]

Zzzzzz Imagine VET not hitting anyone. How boring that race would have been.

It would have been an awesome race. Max and Hamilton and Vettel fighting for 1st.
The championship was already over realistically. Only people living in a fantasy thought Vettel still had a chance with 3 races to go to make 66 more points than Hamilton.

Also it's not about VET hitting two people, and breaking rules. It's about him doing it again AND FIA not punishing him.
It's another DISGRACE for FIA, Ferrari and Vettel.
He should be a big man and admit his mistakes this year and apologize. Just stop lying for once and say "it was my mistake in Baku and in Mexico and probably in Singapore too and now that it's over I'm sorry about it."
Even Schumacher made such an apology. Is Vettel too proud to pull a Schumy?

[turbof1]

Zzzzzz Imagine VET not hitting anyone. How boring that race would have been.

It would have been an awesome race. Max and Hamilton and Vettel fighting for 1st.
The championship was already over realistically. Only people living in a fantasy thought Vettel still had a chance with 3 races to go to make 66 more points than Hamilton.

Also it's not about VET hitting two people, and breaking rules. It's about him doing it again AND FIA not punishing him.
It's another DISGRACE for FIA, Ferrari and Vettel.
He should be a big man and admit his mistakes this year and apologize. Just stop lying for once and say "it was my mistake in Baku and in Mexico and probably in Singapore too and now that it's over I'm sorry about it."
Even Schumacher made such an apology. Is Vettel too proud to pull a Schumy?

Yeah that I agree on. Vettel should actually apology. Anybody can make mistakes. Just make up for it.

[Jolle]

Remember when Hamilton hit Massa a few years back and caused him a flat tire? Hamilton was punished then (and same thing every other similar incident for every set of drivers except maybe teammates).

Remember when Vettel T-boned Button's car and then continued but received a penalty? Red Bull back then, not Ferrari.

Remember when Hamilton "illegaly" passed RAI and then gave position back and then overtook him again after the next turn? They penalized Hamilton for that too. And changed the rulebook after the fact. (Usually they change it before giving penalties, like the "Verstappen defense rule")

Why only FIARRARI escape punishment in your view?

Please know your history, if you refer to it.

In those days even thinking about an overtake would get you into trouble with the stewards. This led to so much criticism that they changed the rules and introduced a drivers steward.

They support more room to attack and defend, even when it goed not according to plan sometimes. If you really F-U, or going beyond the line of hard racing, they give you a penalty (at least, thats the idea). Furthermore, it looks like, if you shoot yourself in the foot (like Vettel did), they won't give a bonus penalty.

Of course, where there is ruling there is argument and there are according to others, mistakes. Not just by the stewards but also by the tribunal. The Vettel-Baku incident is one of ones that was controversial, I also can remember a Rosberg pole where the didn't lift so much trough a double waved yellow and the Mercedes 2013 tire test another.

So, in the end, Vettel not getting a penalty is actually progress. If we still had the strict and badly enforced rules of engagement from the Massa-Hamilton-Webber battles, we would need a second column on the TV for all the penalties given.

[Jolle]

Zzzzzz Imagine VET not hitting anyone. How boring that race would have been.

It would have been an awesome race. Max and Hamilton and Vettel fighting for 1st.
The championship was already over realistically. Only people living in a fantasy thought Vettel still had a chance with 3 races to go to make 66 more points than Hamilton.

Also it's not about VET hitting two people, and breaking rules. It's about him doing it again AND FIA not punishing him.
It's another DISGRACE for FIA, Ferrari and Vettel.
He should be a big man and admit his mistakes this year and apologize. Just stop lying for once and say "it was my mistake in Baku and in Mexico and probably in Singapore too and now that it's over I'm sorry about it."
Even Schumacher made such an apology. Is Vettel too proud to pull a Schumy?

Yeah that I agree on. Vettel should actually apology. Anybody can make mistakes. Just make up for it.

That is the main reason why I can't get to support Vettel.... His inability to deal with those kind of events. It makes me wonder how, behind closed doors, if it's possible to discuss within the team. Or does everybody have to act like it didn't happen? (don't mention the war!)