Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

[gtpumps]

Any assertion that Max listens to the TWG, the teams (other than Ferrari), engineers, the principles, or the manufacturers is patently absurd. He openly defies them all. The narrow tract/grooved tyres change was foisted upon the teams unilaterally in 1998. All the goofy aero "box zones for wing locations" (raising the front wing twice now has made passing more difficult as the "ground effects" under the wing is far less aero sensitive when it is closer to the pavement enabling the cars to follow in "dirty air" much better for over-taking) changes have likewise been unilaterally decreed. Michelin was shown the door against many teams' wishes. The V8s, complete with specified bore centers, camshaft centers, alloys allowed, etc. were foisted upon the teams for "safety reasons". Variable intake trumpets were banned apart from the TWG's input etc. The engine freeze was never an idea that the teams or the TWG agreed to. The standard ECU wasn't agreed to by the TWG. The race fuel quali change of 2003 was introduced in January after the cars were already designed. All the quali changes since then have been done in defiance of the teams wishes. etc. etc. etc.

Crash structure loads, wheel tethers, cockpit issues and arguably the increase in mirror size are, all within the "safety clause", and thereby within the purview of the FIA. Engine configuration, (as late as 1995 we has V8s, V10s, and V12s), V-angle, cylinder spacing, camshaft location, (remember Renault was working on electro/magneto/servo controlled valves, a genuine breakthrough), allowable alloys etc. all are none of Max's business and belong to the domain of the TWG but Max has defied them all. In fact we wouldn't even have pneumatic valves if Max's micro-managing regs had been in place in 1990. Did you know, that in the mind of the FIA, a transmission must have a specified lag time between gear changes or it is deemed a CVT despite having fixed ratios? This is the type of nonsense that Max passes off as valid interpretation. BTW, why are CVTs banned anyway? And why was active suspension banned? And why no "torque steer" braking that would allow the inside trye to have less brake line pressure and thereby not lock up and ruin the tyre? Were any of these things properly run through th TWG? No!!!!

I 100% agree with what you have said. I lost my job because of the 2006 engine regulations.
If Max has to take a fall I won't be loosing any sleep over it.

[checkered]

OK, I see that you are zealous for the success of the anti-racism campaign. But it is Max's self inflicted injury that has diminished his credibility and stature to be involved in such an effort. All Mr Gracia did was to point that out. His comments do not undermine the effort but rather they show what must be done for that effort to succeed.... namely, Max must go.

If you are truly zealous for positive fruit to come out of the EveryRace effort, then logically you would also want to remove all hindrances to the success thereof. All Mr. Gracia did was to point out that the emperor has no clothes. In Max's case, he is responsible for his own lack of clothing as the analogy applies. No pun intended either.

Let's just say that

I'm positively attuned to such efforts, since I've grown to think that without making the point, the lessons are soon forgotten. Yes, it can be awkward to speak out about respect, especially as all of us can easily have lapses of judgement that we fail to see in the wider context - something that can be worse than we realise. It's nice to see that the FIA had the good sense to focus on the positive, naming the project "Everyrace" instead of "Racing against racism". The latter title just starts off with the wrong foot, accentuating the negative.

And that is part of my reasoning here. I can only reiterate that Gracia had no dire need to highlight this association, as "Everyrace" is about everyone equally. He doesn't seem to get the value of that, nor the priorities it entails. That he could've gone without making these remarks a matter of public record suggests a lack of motivation, or an another motive than straightforward concern for the viability of "Everyrace". He leaves his rationale hanging in the air and sadly in so doing, also open to interpretations that some will find all too convenient as excuses in questioning a wholesale commitment to tolerance. The least he could do now is to reaffirm his support for Everyrace, without distractions of his choosing. In this, Max can stand in the way of success only if someone puts him there. I have a feeling that Mosley is not too keen to make the association by himself.

I think we can do better than being "just short of unacceptable"; do we really need to court disaster? If we feel displeasure about someone, the qualities that are indivisible from her/his person and shared by others - such as race - are out of bounds as a matter of criticism. There's no better way to breed frustration and irrational negativity than unfairly denigrating people about things that they can't change (there are very many things we can change with a real positive effect, anyway); as a political tool such tactics are downright evil in their irrational futility. The overall costs will always surpass any perceived "common benefits". That's why racist characterisations are so appealing to dictators - they waste the nation's potential to such a degree that ruling by force alone becomes feasible. It's not too hard to steer clear of these things, really.

Maybe the clearest sign about the lack of judgement in speaking out about Max's dungeon antics and their ramifications in association with Everyrace is that we're having this conversation at all. That it takes time and energy to once again tell them apart, as they very well should when the ironies weren't lost on anyone anyway. Of course, there are bound to be misjudgements along the way and I'm not immune to them either; better temporarily embarrased than consistently wrong.

As far as seeking for a technical rationale for replacing Max, the lengthy post by gcdugas quoted here by gtpumps makes a series of interdependent and highly insightful notions in a relevant context. These highlight actions and trends instigated by Mosley that can be convincingly argued as having had various adverse effects both on the governance and the overall potential of Formula One. With some bewilderment I can only reflect these sorts of quality posts to getting to challenge the "status quo" by "virtue" of a NotW article featuring grainy images of sadomasochism. This begs the question as to what extent FIA member clubs, F1 teams and indeed motorsport fans, too, have dropped the ball in taking responsibility of our sport.

These are challenges we have yet to measure up to. It's half the effort, really, to map them out. Perhaps we can do our part on sites like these.

[Rob W]

Ron Dennis denies he had anything to do with being involved with the investigators who followed Mosely. http://www.f1technical.net/news/8982

I'd like to point your attention to a post I made a month ago:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5359&p=71582#p71582

I'm betting someone associated with McLaren hired to investigators...

What if I was right?

R

[alvaro.drake]

Very good point, Rob W.

So far, everybody has been quite busy crucifying Max Mosley. For me, what he does in his private life is his private business. Of course, once what he does in his private life becomes public, his position as a high profile representative of one of the most notorious organisations of the world becomes unsustainable.

However, I think it is quite obvious that Max Mosley has been targeted deliberately, and I would guess that it is quite possible that whoever made public his private life belongs to the Formula 1 community. Chilling thought indeed! And we thought Stepneygate was embarrassing...

"Honest" Ron categorically denying... Haven't we been there before?

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/spor ... _13987.hbs

from auto motor sport we hear that the license plate of the car used to film Mosley enter the brothel was picked up by a CCTV camera. Mosley's private investigators apparently have access to such materials. they also found out according to this source that the videos and other material was at the NOTW just two hours after the sex romp ended. that confirms that the "trappers" had excellent logistics.

The short period of time suggests that there is a tie up between the financial backers of the expensive trapping operation and the NOTW. The material must have landed practically uncut and complete at NOTW. there wasn't really time to edit out any details that would be detrimental or inconvenient. this suggests that the paper was closely allied to the trappers or was the source of finance of the operation against Mosley.

[gcdugas]

All this recent finger pointing is irrelevant. Suppose that it could be conclusively proven that anyone in particular, be it McLaren, Paul Stoddardt, Bernie, or whomever, was behind the set up. Furthermore, let us stipulate that they openly confess to it. Now what?

Well Max may well win a gazillion euros in "unlimited damages" but can he carry on? That is in essense the question posed at the end of this article from yesterday.

In the end, however, it is not really relevant because while someone might have dug the hole, Mosley still fell headlong into it and this undermines any case completely he might wish to formulate. If Mosley can find out who did it, he could use publicity against the alleged perpetrator(s) to damage them and, perhaps, frustrate whatever it is that they are trying to achieve.

The problem with that is that one might reach the conclusion that they have already achieved what they set out to.

So setting aside all the intrigue and whodunit mystery, we are left back at square one... Can Max continue with any degree of credibility? Can he govern without becoming a living, walking, breathing joke? Can F1, WRC etc. abide the ignominy of having such a person as its sitting President?

We have already seen Max debilitated from appearing at the Spanish GP to introduce the "EveryRace" crusade. And while he was in Jordan (a thinly veiled excuse for missing Barcelona), the King of Jordan studiously avoided meeting Max lest they be photographed together.

Ugliness awaits in Monaco, his first public appearance "on the continent" with any degree of advanced notice. Max will not be able to walk the grid as Bernie will do anything to keep him off-camera. Moreover, nobody will come within 10 ft. of Max. He will be like a walking bubble. Who would go near him.... besides his hired entourage of thugs and appointed hacks? It could become a carnival with protesters dressed in S & M gear, placards in the crowds, circled swastikas with a slash through them (a.k.a. "No Nazis") and of course the obligatory Jewish groups shoving some holocaust spokesperson in front of the cameras denouncing the whole thing. BMW, Mercedes, the high profile jeweler sponsor Steinmetz, will all issue new statements distancing themselves from the whole sordid mess. I fully expect NotW to release something timely as well. Perhaps the whole 5 hour video will "leak out" onto the internet. Perhaps they will display the actual costumes of the hookers along with the whips, chains, leather etc. at a nearby street display. And what better to sell papers than to interview some skin-head neo-Nazi group leader and a few rag tags voicing support for Max? Certainly NotW knows who to call for these matters as some desperate pathetic dope is always willing to make a fool of himself in front of the camera in exchange for some euros and five minutes of fame.

We are right now witnessing the calm before the storm. It is going to get very interesting as long as there are papers to be sold and as long as there are very powerful players vying for control, revenge, power, and gain.

And the whole "safety thing" is no defense for Max even after Heikki escaped a bad crash without injury. The same article addresses this with these words....

There is little doubt that if the FIA picks the right leader for the future, the current campaigns for road safety and environmental awareness will continue. It would be hard for them not to as both are central issues in the automotive world. Thus the argument that only Mosley can do this does not really stack up, indeed it works against him because of his lack of personal credibility and the damage that has been done to the reputation of the federation as a result.

I am with Bernie on this one. People find it repugnant, Max will lose, and it will continue to be in the papers. Auf Wiedersehen Max.

[WhiteBlue]

I don't find it irrelevant at all to find out who was behind the NOTW operation. I'm actually quite curious and on top I would like to see the person or persons exposed for such a dirty trick. More than one trapper has been trapped in his own traps.

Regarding Max Mosley I have all the confidence that this thing will shake out one way or another. Mosley certainly isn't acceptable to many important people that he needs to talk to in order to do his job. on top the large membership clubs in the USA, Germany and other countries are opposed to his presidency now. so they will replace him soon. if the rather unusual statues of the FIA produce a decision against the majority of the membership it will be a bit later and there will be more turmoil at the FIA. some sources have mentioned that in this case the AAA management is planning a break away.

the more important issue in my view is finding a good replacement candidate and start building a campaign. I'm a bit surprised that this issue isn't given more attention by the media.

[DaveKillens]

Over the years, Max has made many bitter enemies. So I'm not surprised that someone had him followed in the hope of exposing dirt. So what, that's what half of the detective business does. And later, NotW got involved, and sold a lot of papers. A lot of debate on legalities has been put forth, and in my eyes, whoever went to all this trouble to find and expose Max's little secret really didn't break any laws. Hire detectives to follow someone? Bribe some hooker to turn on her customer? Making sure all the juicy tidbits would be exposed via mass media?
Yea, it's a low form of life that would stoop to such a level of personal vendetta, but someone did, and we will never find out, and to me, I really don't care. Mind you, in the first days of this story, I did point an imaginary finger at Ron Dennis. But that's just my imagination at work. If he really, actually was involved, he wouldn't be foolish enough to leave a trail.

[checkered]

This reflects badly on everyone and while I fully recognise that here we have something that is very likely to be the straw of "immensely bad personal judgement" that breaks the back of the camel that is Max's FIA reign, this hay here sure wasn't made while the sun shone. No, it has a history backroom dealings, massive egoes, medieval tactics and shady corners written all over it. This also raises questions about blackmail being possible for those lacking scruples. Anything but appealing and given that some of whom may think of themselves as beneficiaries (by indefinite criteria) have been around for a while, many will find that the tar sticks.

It's been some

time since I wrote that on this very thread. Pitpass's Chris Balfe expands on this theme quite nicely in his feature, "Skeletons". The Times They Are A-Changing in Formula One, to the delight of some and to the frustration of others. It appears this won't happen without complications and setbacks - nor without old war horses giving in to the temptation of recounting their less-publicised trials and adventures, lest someone else be given a free hand in choosing the tone for those illustrations. It's easy to see watershed moments with the benefit of hindsight, harder to discern living through one - but I think we're presently "in it".

Either Formula One swims, or then it sinks. This will depend on a critical mass of people finding enough value and potential in F1; and I'm not referring to the handful of people "in charge" now, but to a much wider collective framework. I've spent some time in imagining how this sport might have a future and am satisfied that it can have one (for I am fond of it). I'm far less certain it does have one as the immensity of the challenges inherited and imposed keeps on growing.

[DaveKillens]

Max tried to block the video in britain, and lost in court. The same thing happened recently in France. Why France? Well, the hearing will be convened in Paris, and if Max had been able to make the video "illegal" in France, then it couldn't be seen in Paris.
I sense that behind the scenes, Max is mounting a very determined and strong response to his personal crisis.

[tom_sawyer]

yep Max boy had a lil fun on da run............so wat.............dats his business neways................i dnt c ne reason y ppl shud go pokin thr noses in it.............also may da one who is witout ne sin thro da first stone..........wassa y guys....[-X

[WhiteBlue]

.... A lot of debate on legalities has been put forth, and in my eyes, whoever went to all this trouble to find and expose Max's little secret really didn't break any laws. ...

I'm not so sure that the "trappers" did not break the law. It was asserted that they conducted surveyance of telefones and computers which is illegal in most places without the order of a judge. If it is true they have certainly done something illegal. the NOTW also runs the risk of being found guilty of illegally exposing Mosleys privacy. that is already part of the law suit. and if they are connected to illegal surveyance activities that could adversely impact on the fine they may incur.

In the meantime there is interesting news on grandprix.com regarding a vote on Mosley in the WMSC where Mosley and Ecclestone did not vote.

According to Novak the result of this straw poll was six abstentions, nine votes for Mosley and nine votes against.

Novak is the guy who speculated about the identity of the trappers this week.

[DaveKillens]

It's obvious Novak is working for Max. He's introduced speculation about "trappers" (a fine diversion I must say), and leaked some news about a private vote where Max is not condemned. I wonder what promises Max made to Novak, maybe a rally or something.

As far as turning a blind eye to a person with a perversion, it may be OK in your corner of the universe, but not in mine. John Wayne Gacy, Jr. started out with "minor" perversions of first, homosexuality. Then he moved up to child molestation before graduating as a true serial murderer. Max's affair is just an indicator of a sickness, to what levels and how long we do not know. I'm not saying Max is a killer or anything like that. But to ignore and turn a blind eye to something wrong is, well, let's start with irresponsible and immature.

[gcdugas]

It's obvious Novak is working for Max. He's introduced speculation about "trappers" (a fine diversion I must say), and leaked some news about a private vote where Max is not condemned. I wonder what promises Max made to Novak, maybe a rally or something.

.... or what dirt Max has on Novak with which to blackmail him into compliance. One thing we can be sure of is that the June 3rd vote will be far from "un-coerced and free". Every vote for Max will be either the result of a shady back room deal, bribery, corrupt rewards and kick-backs, or conversely, threats, fear of retribution or even outright blackmail. Not one vote for Max will be on the "up and up" or legit, not one. How could it? Can you actually tell me that anyone, even some two member club in West Bum Fork (which has the same one vote as the US despite the US having over 50% of the constituency), would actually want a bare bottomed S&M whipee as their illustrious leader?

Behind the scenes lobbying, arm twisting, threats etc. is the real reason such an exigent meeting takes two months to convene. And any smoke that Max proffers about "conflicting schedules of international VIPs and CEOs" is pure BS. They have routinely conducted matters in the past by a fax vote to accommodate member's schedules. The whole reason for the delay is to buy Max time so he can worm a deal.

The upside to this delay is that right now 99.9% of Max's time is being consumed in his megalomaniacal effort to retain power. This could be a good thing because he is that much less free to unilaterally impose his agenda and ruin F1 by dumbing it down to a budget capped series that is hyper-regulated with frozen engines, spec tyres, spec this and spec that with less technology than a LMP car.

BTW, do you know why Audi and their imitators were able to race a "green friendly" diesel at LeMans? It was because the rules allowed for engineering innovation unlike F1 which specs V-angle, bore centers, alloys, camshaft location, bore/stroke ratios, gearbox changes, two race engine rule etc. If F1 isn't careful a real CVT, active suspension and other innovations etc. will be refined and developed in LMP, and other advances will originate there. And the final result will be that F1 is no longer the pinnacle of motorsport technology.

[WhiteBlue]

... Behind the scenes lobbying, arm twisting, threats etc. is the real reason such an exigent meeting takes two months to convene. And any smoke that Max ....

you do not seem to be aware that the FIA statues are being followed by this procedure and they actually have been that way for many yeares.

... They have routinely conducted matters in the past by a fax vote to accommodate member's schedules. The whole reason for the delay is to buy Max time so he can worm a deal....

perhaps you cite one instance when They (the general assembly = the highest gremium of the FIA) has not met and conducted business by fax vote. they are obliged by statues to convene in person like any other parliment or representative body. Perhaps you confuse the GA with the WMSC. let me asure you it isn't the same thing!

the FIA is simply a very large organisation with hundreds of membership organizations and millions of members. they have their own rules dealing with internal policies and legitimation of representative. it would be very bad indeed if those rules would not be followed. I am totally convinced that at the end of the process whatever happens the wishes of the constituency will be heard. there isn't really any urgency to manipulate decisions and create opportunity to start legal complaints at a later time.